Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Would the changes to Skill Speed might/probably be worth a consideration? If we summised that most of the new gear could potentially stack it, even the slowest of us could manage a full/modified rotation on the length of HT at least? Probably wishful thinking though, but its what popped into my head while reading the last couple of posts.

Also, considering we're getting no TP buffs, i would gather that the two combo moves might take surprising less TP to use then CT and FT. However, i do hope there will be some help provided with invigorate/TP management...higher SS and more moves could see us needing a Bard's help more than ever...Although, it wouldn't be surprising if that's SE's line of thought: "You have it too easy keeping track on TP...We'll make you suffer for your greatness, mwahahahaha!"

Apologies if any of this is just stupid talk :P

Keeping track of tp isn't easy or hard though, its simply, here is a hard cap on your dps.

Trolololol, we'll do this instead of giving you an interesting resource management, and making hitting every GCD the hallmark of a good dps, not "do you have a bard or not".

TP and MP (for non healer) are really keeping the game down.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

but a 4th combo w/o HT is going to be at least 400 or so, bringing your average dps way up.

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Oh i have not even a slight doubt that the new enders will be worth it, i was just advocating that instead of letting things fall off we could go the route of clipping things. For example clipping HT by 2 GCDs is slightly better than letting it fall off for 2 GCDs since it buffs your next HT.

I mathed it out already. If we're keeping the "same" base rotation of HIDCPTTT, but in-corperating Geirskogul and BotD + 4th tier, using "4th tier" power, which should be 400 potency +, it's a straight 15-20 PPS increase (40-50DPS), even with losing out on 2 GCDs of Disembowel + Heavy Thrust, 2.5 Ticks of Phlebotomize and 1.5 Ticks of Chaos Thrust.

If there's also hidden traits that we don't know about, which extends HT/Disembowel duration, Dragoons DPS is going to be insane. Whatever the outcome will be, you'll be pleased with it.

EDIT: I'm thinking of making the new DRG topic something like "Dragoons Per Second". Something "generic" which would work for 3.0-5.0 etc. Anyone else got ideas?

Do that, this thread's OP seems to be long gone.

It's also the Great Wall of China of text by now...

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Dragoons Per Second

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That works. :D

butnotpersecond

If only you could use Italics in thread title...

I might use "How to Dragoon per second"

At least 360 Dragoons per hour.

We'll have a lore thread detailing Dragoon History called "Dragoons over Time"

Hold up on the DPS simulator cause dragoon abilities suck, esp Life Surge - nothing else is such an annoying check - anyone know if dots are affected by disembowel?

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Hold up on the DPS simulator cause dragoon abilities suck, esp Life Surge - nothing else is such an annoying check - anyone know if dots are affected by disembowel?

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Only the initial damage of Phleb/CT are impacted.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I mathed it out already. If we're keeping the "same" base rotation of HIDCPTTT, but in-corperating Geirskogul and BotD + 4th tier, using "4th tier" power, which should be 400 potency +, it's a straight 15-20 PPS increase (40-50DPS), even with losing out on 2 GCDs of Disembowel + Heavy Thrust, 2.5 Ticks of Phlebotomize and 1.5 Ticks of Chaos Thrust.

If there's also hidden traits that we don't know about, which extends HT/Disembowel duration, Dragoons DPS is going to be insane. Whatever the outcome will be, you'll be pleased with it.

EDIT: I'm thinking of making the new DRG topic something like "Dragoons Per Second". Something "generic" which would work for 3.0-5.0 etc. Anyone else got ideas?

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I like the DPS: Dragoons Per Second with a subsection of Dragoons Over Time. Also, they did say they are reworking existing abilities on all classes so a change to the cost or duration of moves like Phleb and HT are plausible expectations, or we can go the wait 2 GCDs/clip 2 GCDs early methods. I look forward to derping around with rotations come HW.

The fourth teir combo better have a potency of 420 and the aoe 500 >.>

It'll be interesting for a lot of classes, especially DRG from what it sounds like, for mode management. You guys might get screwed like us BLMs in a phase change situations a la T9/T13 etc and will have to decide between using half a mode's duration and losing it during a phase change, but putting it on CD sooner, vs saving it for after a period of forced inactivity and just using 2.0 rotations until then. Will probably be a large factor between good DRGs and shitty ones.

Strange how MNK is getting a lot to mitigate phase change negatives and other classes will now fear them ;_; Especially DRG, one of the kings of not getting negatively impacted by downtime.

Well, maybe it's a little presumptuous to assume it'll be very susceptible to phase changes. It might be a CD where you use it at the start of the fight and then pretty much don't use it unless you specifically want to AoE spam extra or if you screw up/die/phase change.

How long do combos last? I ballparked 15 seconds but it might be closer to 10.

If you have a decent connection and manage to weave in oGCD skills between GCD skills, a 4 skill combo shouldn't take more than 10 seconds, and even less depending on your skill speed.

If you mean the full Dragoon rotation as it is nowdays, then it would take around 20 seconds to get all my DoTs on the target, after which I re-apply HT and Phleb.

No I mean, the combo itself, as in, you True Thrust then stop, how long will Vorpal Thrust glow?

It's 10 seconds.

Also, I'm not sure if Monks are going to be -that- terrifying, they will just have something to dump their GL on before no touch periods, but they still take pretty long to build up and get back to GL3 and to full DPS, unless they get a skill similar to Perfect Balance and I just forgot.

Did someone have a link to the "better" rotation? I was going to simulate it over the naive rotation.

HT -(Internal Release)-> ID -( X-POT)-> Dis -(Power Surge + Blood for Blood)-> CT -(Jump)-> Phleb -(Dragonfire Dive)-> TT -(Spineshatter Dive)-> VT -(Life Surge)-> FT -(Leg sweep) —>

Then just use cooldowns once they're available, pretty much. Something like that.

I always go: HT > (BfB) > Phleb >(IR) > ID > (Sweep) > Dis > (Power Surge) > CT > (Dragonfire Dive) > TT > (Jump) > VT > (Life Surge) > FT > (Spineshatter if available) > HT...

So far has won me the first place in DPS in T13 every time as far as I can remember... I still don't understand why I should use CT combo after HT, Phleb's initial potency is quite high and those DoT ticks should count for something, as it's also boosted by HT and BfB, right?

I'm not sure if IR affects DoT crits, and if it does, has it been confirmed that I need to use IR before Phelb in order for it to affect the DoT damage?

Also, I'm playing with ~125ms latency (with WTFast), so double weaving might be too much for me.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I always go: HT > (BfB) > Phleb >(IR) > ID > (Sweep) > Dis > (Power Surge) > CT > (Dragonfire Dive) > TT > (Jump) > VT > (Life Surge) > FT > (Spineshatter if available) > HT...

So far has won me the first place in DPS in T13 every time as far as I can remember... I still don't understand why I should use CT combo after HT, Phleb's initial potency is quite high and those DoT ticks should count for something, as it's also boosted by HT and BfB, right?

I'm not sure if IR affects DoT crits, and if it does, has it been confirmed that I need to use IR before Phelb in order for it to affect the DoT damage?

Also, I'm playing with ~125ms latency (with WTFast), so double weaving might be too much for me.

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Someone's gonna come in and tell you how it's like 1 less DPS doing HT > Phleb > CT over HT > CT > Phleb, but here's the real reason. If nothing else, you put up CT first because that's a GCD sooner for Disembowel for BRD. BRD's at its strongest in the first 20s of a fight, you don't wanna lose even a GCD of buffing that.

For me, I got:

HT (Legsweep+BFB)>ID (PS+IR)> Dis (X-pot)> CT (Jump)> Phlebo (DFD)> TT (SDD)> VT (Lifesurge)> TT (Poison pot)

Also, phlebo initial hit is affected by disembowel, you can also blood for blood and internal release your dots yes, but the buffs have to be active at the moment where you apply them. So if you wait for your phlebo, you have it buffed by HT+Disembowel+BFB+IR+ Xpot of str. Just flat better than right after HT.

I know that Disembowel doesn't do anything for DoT's, but I can't argue it wouldn't boost the initial damage from Phleb.

I also don't understand how you fancy people can afford all those X-potions, including them in your rotations like that makes it seem like you use them every rotation...

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Also, I'm playing with ~125ms latency (with WTFast), so double weaving might be too much for me.

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i think it should be fine even with 125ms, but if not, and if you want to go for 9gcd bfb

(p.surge)>ht>(ir)>id>(xpot)>dis>(late bfb)>ct>(jump)>phleb(dfd/ssd)>tt(dfd/ssd)>vt>(ls)>ft(sweep)>ht(ppp)>tt>vt>ft(bfb off)

i've never cared about the order of jumps, between dfd and ssd. even if they're off cooldown, most of the time i think its better to save them til you're in bfb for 30% extra damage, unless you know that casting it earlier is going to get you another cast in or if you're gonna wait more than 36s/18s for bfb to come up after they go off cd respectively

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I know that Disembowel doesn't do anything for DoT's, but I can't argue it wouldn't boost the initial damage from Phleb.

I also don't understand how you fancy people can afford all those X-potions, including them in your rotations like that makes it seem like you use them every rotation...

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Crafters in FC, Sell runs for money, yadayada, Xpot helps a lot in prog for pushing dps. Also help when you want to know where you can go in fights. I don't use them in every rotation because they arent always up. But when they are, I do use them. Not a lot tho since echo, because it has become unnecessary, so yeah. The damage boost of xpot is op tho; +84 strenght is non-negligable!

And they say Dragoon is an easy class...

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

And they say Dragoon is an easy class...

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Once you figure out the rotation you want to use, DRG IS an easy class. Probably the easiest DPS of all.

That's the thing, there seems to be so many rotations, most of them seem to include the use of potions.

Do Monks have it like this, or do they just have one rotation without pots because they beat everyone's arse anyway if they can maintain GL?

I suppose I can take some solace in the fact that I'm still able to dish out competitive DPS, which I assume is because I have the fundamentals down... As in staying glued to the target, hitting while moving/dodging, not letting DoT's drop, etc...

How much more DPS can I expect if I use optimal rotation? I haven't tested my DPS on a dummy in a while, but I'm somewhere around 640 in T13 before first adds if I get lucky with mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Once you figure out the rotation you want to use, DRG IS an easy class. Probably the easiest DPS of all.

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It's an easy job to play efficiently. It's not an easy job to play optimally. If Dragoon was truely a cookie-cutter job, every Dragoon would be plowing through the DPS charts. Sadly that isn't the case...

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I'm not sure if IR affects DoT crits, and if it does, has it been confirmed that I need to use IR before Phelb in order for it to affect the DoT damage?

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It does, and it has.

Due to the nature of skill speed (thanks, Selene), the tendency is for GCDs to outpace the oGCDs, so in a strict dummy rotation, back-loading the DoTs encourages both buffs to stay ahead of them in a long fight. I have many weeks of T8 logs where Chaos Thrust and Phlebotomize appear to have the +5% and +3.33% overall crit rate you'd expect from doing this.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I also don't understand how you fancy people can afford all those X-potions, including them in your rotations like that makes it seem like you use them every rotation...

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You can use cheaper potions when the situation doesn't call for the best, most expensive one available. They are always getting dumped on my server's MB for less than the 108 gil it'd take to buy a Potion of Strength from an NPC. Poison pots, well, those are a bit expensive for what they do; I stop using them once Coil stops being a fight to the finish every week.

For FCoB progression, I stocked up on ingredients well before the patch hit and made 'em myself. It was time consuming, but a significant discount. Then I made a really big batch for a weekend-long T13 push but we cleared it in a couple hours on a Friday ┐(´-｀)┌

It was still less gil overall than the VIT-melded accessories.

Why SE in all their wisdom made STR Mega/X-potions use Shark Oil when it's the appropriate potion for half the raid and the others use easy gathers like Dart Frogs is not for we mortals to comprehend.

Oh man yea I remember vit melded accessories, because mechanics would just one shot you.

Also, good for inflating your seeming ilvl =DDDD

(The only stats I optimize for are the ones that let me be a jerk)

I did level alchemist to 50 so I could make my own potions, but shark oils is indeed darn expensive.


Edit: My DPS seems to be around 560 on a dummy without food, group buff or any potions... Is it anywhere near where it should be?

If you check what I'm wearing, you'll probably notice my equipment isn't very optimized.

I use poison pots all the time, they're pretty cheap on Cerberus. Got 300 or so for a couple hundred k. For me it's less about the DPS increase and more about having one more oGCD to pop so I don't get bored... :p

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I did level alchemist to 50 so I could make my own potions, but shark oils is indeed darn expensive.


Edit: My DPS seems to be around 560 on a dummy without food, group buff or any potions... Is it anywhere near where it should be?

If you check what I'm wearing, you'll probably notice my equipment isn't very optimized.

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Checking your gear it says:

652 STR
501 CHR
326 DET
404 SS

Definitely pretty far from optimized but it's okay enough. I would think you'd be pretty close to 580-590 with party, food, and pot so it seems fine to me.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

My DPS seems to be around 560 on a dummy without food, group buff or any potions... Is it anywhere near where it should be?

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That's fine. I'm BiS (finally) and I do pretty much spot on 600 without food, party or potions.

I haven't been bothering with BiS gear since I'm just trying to power through FCoB before HW, which I'm not having a very good luck with.

I know T13 like the back of my hand after a week of trying to PF it, but I'm yet to find a group that can finish the job, I suppose all the decent players are already done with it.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I'm haven't been bothering with BiS gear since I'm just trying to power through FCoB before HW, which I'm not having a very good luck with.

I know T13 like the back of my hand after a week of trying to PF it, but I'm yet to find a group that can finish the job, I suppose all the decent players are already done with it.

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My experience as well. My static lost two members about a month ago (WAR and SCH), and finding replacements has proven more or less impossible.

has anyone done the math on if its favorable to clip chaos thrust to refresh it with bfb? for example with 9 bfb rotation

ht->id>dis>(late bfb)>ct>phleb>ttt>ht>id>dis>ct (clips at 11s~)>bfb wears off

this wouldnt be good i think for the very first CT because you also have an xpot for that CT that won't be there on the reapplication, but later on when the rotation lines up 9gcd bfb starting with CT, i think it'd be a dps improvement to clip CT at 12s~ with another CT before bfb wears off. you get a +30% dmg buffed CT to last for 18s+30s, 48s total, which seems like it'd be better than using TTT combo, which is 60~ potency higher, but having an additional 18s of CT being buffed by BFB seems like its better on paper. im probably missing something though