As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Read my posts I was talking about zurvan farms and people expecting that healer dps makes them skip soar. Which maybe it helps, but already said if both healers are full on at start and you dont then its not healers to blame. But I was also referring to the fact that I see healers failing to heal properly when under pressure to dps. Some of my friends hate zurvan because of it and because they already got the bird dont want to step foot in there again so it isnt such a big option as your saying.

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So you were saying healers are under pressure only in Zurvan, and can play Savage without pressure? (I know you're not, you're just trying to explain each of your post differently every time someone questions the argument behind them.) Once again you're not actually replying to my question (if you see casual, pressure-free raiding as an option for healers in current environment or not) but trying to sidetrack the discussion to your personal experiences of very specific situations. And this is why it is so difficult trying to have an actual conversation with you, even when I am actually reading your posts and trying to understand your point.

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

It's not going anywhere, you know.

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perhaps your right but in that game dont you think the designers will listen to their customers and give them an easy mode? You would think game designers would like to make people enjoy their games That would make more sense than wanting round people fit into a square hole. Thats why I guess on this game some find it easy and some find it hard. In order to acheive balance both types have to 'put up ' with something, thats not ideal for them. Yes but I dont think designers want to alienate some off the game. Undue stress put on others by the community is something that can be changed without effecting peoples ability. No one can have it all their way though and not so good players will still struggle but you experts will have your own instancd soon, maybe non dpsing healers may get a break too.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

perhaps your right but in that game dont you think the designers will listen to their customers and give them an easy mode?

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FFXIV actually has easy modes of Alexander (normal version) and primals (story versions). These are content specifically meant for people who don't want to experience the pressure. Normal version was included in Alexander but wasn't there for Coil. Savage and Extreme versions are specifically designed for players who want to be challenged more than that and can handle that pressure.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

perhaps your right but in that game dont you think the designers will listen to their customers and give them an easy mode?

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Well, there is an easy mode in FFXIV. ^^
And there are many games where the best rewards are in the hardest difficulty, like infinite ammo, costumes, that kind of crap, or like FFXIV : useless titles, mounts etc. You should see the whole thing like this actually.

And no, some customers like having a certain level of challenge. If you can beat everything while watching Netflix and eating some doritos then... I'm not sure we could still describe it as a game. You know, the thrill of the fight and the satisfaction to win... ( * ^*)9

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Originally Posted by Taika

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Damn, i'm too slow... Again. ;^;

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Originally Posted by Taika

So you were saying healers are under pressure only in Zurvan, and can play Savage without pressure? (I know you're not, you're just trying to explain each of your post differently every time someone questions the argument behind them.) Once again you're not actually replying to my question

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No ofc not I wasnt saying that at all. Look pressure is in farms thats why its a daily thing. I do savage once a week but if people kept leaving cos we didnt skip dark, and healers had to be seen to be dpsing their asses off in all phases I wouldnt even bother I see healers fail cos of trying to dpa and I struggle with a co healer thats afraid to come out cleric. Thats what I mean by unnecessary stress put there by the community but im sorry u find it hard to understand my points as I try to explain the best I can

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Originally Posted by Wanzer

Well, there is an easy mode in FFXIV. ^^
And there are many games where the best rewards are in the hardest difficulty, like infinite ammo, costumes, that kind of crap, or like FFXIV : useless titles, mounts etc. You should see the whole thing like this actually.

And no, some customers like having a certain level of challenge. If you can beat everything while watching Netflix and eating some doritos then... I'm not sure we could still describe it as a game. You know, the thrill of the fight and the satisfaction to win... ( * ^*)9

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Damn, i'm too slow... Again. ;^;

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yes well hard mode isnt a challenge at all. And a completely futile excercise as it has no reward for me at all. So if thats all I could do I wouldnt bother playing anyway. Im end game. So Im enterely with you in your points and keep saying people need enjoyable challenges note the word ' enjoyable' Not in fear of being kicked cos as a healer they cant dps constantly

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No ofc not I wasnt saying that at all. Look pressure is in farms thats why its a daily thing.

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So why not set up a party "No-pressure Zurvan farm. DPS doesn't matter as long as we get the kill. Don't join if you expect to skip Soar"? There's the option I'm talking about: don't join farm parties that expect to skip Soar if that makes you feel pressured (as a healer or as anything at all). Create a party on your own terms, make them clear for everyone and play with likeminded players. That's the option everyone has.

I know I never join "1 fail = kick" or "must bring super awesome DPS" parties - not because I'm worried I would not be able to handle it, but because I don't think that builds good atmosphere. Instead the last party finder group I joined (for Savage) said "don't join if you expect to clear". Not all groups are the same, some have more pressure than others, and we all can choose what kind of groups we wish to join.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

If both your healers struggle to get by just healing, gear progression will not allow you to drop either of them until the next expansion. One of them will be able to focus more on DPSing or debuffing as you progress and they will stop struggling, but you won't be able to drop one. That only works if you barely need a second one in the first place and the gear pushes you over the line. We're actually much closer to the latter than the prior case right now, considering how much healers are DPSing even during progression.

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Not being able to drop healers was kind of my point, it goes against the overall design of the game as people are not able to easily gear up two classes for progression. There is room to increase the overall healing burden by a little bit, mostly the attrition type constant damage, mechanical burst healing is already well present and shouldn't be made any harder than it is, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

But the first approach is to cut down on downtime and resource surplus. And I personally see Mana management as a good way to do that.

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I don't think mana management is the best way to go about it. If the resources are tight, there's a great chance the gameplay turns into a battle of trying to be as idle as possible in order to preserve the resources. You'd still try to heal as little as possible, but you wouldn't fill in the time with active gameplay, but would rather passively preserve your mana. I think this kind of gameplay emerges in situations where people mess up mechanics and die a lot anyway, so there's no specific need to make it the main goal of gameplay, in my opinion anyhow.

I'd rather see time as the main resource like it is currently. You weight each GCD according to the battle mechanics and heal when it's needed, and do other things when it's not needed.

Of course, there are other ways to make healing different, but they would require bigger changes in content. Like make damage more random and unpredictable, which basically makes for a reactive style whack-a-mole gameplay where you try to instantly top any HP bar that drops a little. I have a feeling that it would make all the encounters in the game too similar and wouldn't allow for much variation in healing mechanics, though.

You could also make heals a lot weaker and the incoming damage lower, reducing the risk of instant-KOs but increasing the importance of constant throughput. Personally I think that is less interesting than healing different types of mechanical damage though.

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Originally Posted by Taika

So why not set up a party "No-pressure Zurvan farm. DPS doesn't matter as long as we get the kill. Don't join if you expect to skip Soar"? There's the option I'm talking about: don't join farm parties that expect to skip Soar if that makes you feel pressured (as a healer or as anything at all). Create a party on your own terms, make them clear for everyone and play with likeminded players.

I know I never join "1 fail = kick" or "must bring super awesome DPS" parties - not because I'm worried I would not be able to handle it, but because I don't think that builds good atmosphere. Instead the last party finder group I joined (for Savage) said "don't join if you expect to clear". Not all groups are the same, some have more pressure than others, and we all can choose what kind of groups we wish to join.

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Yes your entirely correct, I didnt think of putting those conditions. Its a very good idea as soo many people are afraid to join farms.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

I don't think mana management is the best way to go about it. If the resources are tight, there's a great chance the gameplay turns into a battle of trying to be as idle as possible in order to preserve the resources.

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You're getting the entire wrong idea from it, though.

The point is explicitly to NOT make you idle, but rather use a lot of weak heals that interact with each other or require smart usage to either retain or regain mana. A very crude and basic way is the freecure proc. As proc, it is unreliable, but imagine casting cure while regen is on the target would make the next cure II have half the mana cost. Or imagine a HoT that replenishes half its cost if it's not refreshed but rather runs out naturally. Or weaker cure that reduces the CD of (free) Tetra by Y seconds or another that gives access to a free OGCD. Or a spell that refreshes the duration of Regen and costs less than Regen itself. Or a cheap spell that heals a good amount after X seconds, where you have to gauge whether it'll be a good investment or not. Or another spell that increases the potency of an otherwise weak spell with every cast, increasing its value. Or a ground healing spell that replenishes MP for every person that stands in it every tick. A heal that plants a buff in the target that flourishes into a free HoT if targeted with a different heal.

I'm talking that sort of MP management. By making frequent, smart healing decisions and having skill interactions and complexity, you would save a lot of mana, which then could be funneled into buffs or simply going longer. It's a far cry from asking players to stand around idly IMO.