Shadowbringers RDM Wishlist

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Welp, at first I was pretty "Meh, nothing really new..." when they announced the RDM changes, but now I see that it's pretty possible that Reprise ends up adding some very needed depth in the gameplay. Sure, I doubt it'll be rocket science but I guess it's nice to have some complexity added to the class, even if minor.

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I wouldn't necessarily say Reprise adds complexity per se, since you still ideally wouldn't end up in a position to use it and it doesn't alter the base gameplay loop, but it does give another tool to protect us from bad luck streaks (or as the case may be, "too much good luck" streaks) that we already face which put us in danger of overcapping or wasting procs, which is certainly appreciated.

According to the Patchnotes the potency of enchanted reprise has been nerfed to 220. So 2 of our 3 new 70-80 skills are now skills you don't want to use and will almost never use. I really tried to stay positive despite the underwhelming changes and enchanted reprise was a light of hope with it's optimization possibilities but now it's just a skill bloating our hotbar that you will just use if you are absolutely forced to do so. Rdm got really screwed with the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Scryar

According to the Patchnotes the potency of enchanted reprise has been nerfed to 220. So 2 of our 3 new 70-80 skills are now skills you don't want to use and will almost never use. I really tried to stay positive despite the underwhelming changes and enchanted reprise was a light of home with it's optimization possibilities but now it's just a skill bloating our hotbar that you will just use if you are absolutely forced to do so. Rdm got really screwed with the expansion.

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Basically me right now.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...901&height=676

Well... it's still more powerful as a GCD than Riposte and more cost-effective than any individual melee skill. It may still be our go-to for dumping excess Mana.

80 potency's a hefty hit though, and with it being weaker than the Verquicks you'd be using it for... oof.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Well... it's still more powerful as a GCD than Riposte and more cost-effective than any individual melee skill. It may still be our go-to for dumping excess Mana.

80 potency's a hefty hit though, and with it being weaker than the Verquicks you'd be using it for... oof.

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The thing is, you don't evaluate the melee combo skills in isolation. You evaluate the entire combo, and with that into account, enchanted riposte is less potency per GCD and less potency per mana. And at 300, it still was, but it was compensated with the added flexibility in adjusting excess mana to fit the melee combo in buff windows or in situations where we couldn't go into melee range for a while. Now, overcapping mana will be more efficient than using Enchanted Riposte to dump some.

So we end up having VerScathe.

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Originally Posted by Taim_Meich

The thing is, you don't evaluate the melee combo skills in isolation. You evaluate the entire combo,

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... Except that this evaluation simply assumes that the use of Reprise comes at the cost of a melee combo.

The value of any skill in the melee combo tree relies entirely on the time and cost of executing the skills that precede it. The value of a Verfinisher isn't split up amongst the melee skills; its value is exactly 0 if you don't spend 80/80 Mana and at least 3 melee GCDs setting it up.

One Riposte contains the cost of three Reprises, and the value of less than one. Riposte and Zwerchau contains five Reprises, and the value of less than three. You don't evaluate Reprise against the full melee combo (and consequent Verfinishers) until you actually get to the point where you are giving up the full melee combo, and at the point where you're casting up to Zwerchau (55/55) "just to dump Mana" you weren't in a situation where Reprise was applicable anyway, because that situation doesn't exist -- by that point you'd continue building up to Redoublement before comboing. Likewise, there's virtually no situation of Reprise-dumping where you'd use it more than twice anyway without already having taken a loss.

If I just want to dump 10/10 Mana before I Manafication or spend a Verquick proc, Reprise is there.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

If I just want to dump 10/10 Mana before I Manafication or spend a Verquick proc, Reprise is there.

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Problem is, in all but the most edge of cases, using a Reprise for this purpose will waste more potency than it will gain. Riposte is stronger than Reprise by virtue of its recast, and Reprise is weaker than your GCDs on account of its potency.

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Originally Posted by Turing

Problem is, in all but the most edge of cases, using a Reprise for this purpose will waste more potency than it will gain. Riposte is stronger than Reprise by virtue of its recast, and Reprise is weaker than your GCDs on account of its potency.

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It seems to me that it goes like this. Wanna delay your Melee combo?

5 seconds: Overcap your Mana. Do Not Reprise.
10 seconds: Moulinet
15 seconds: Riposte

Its silly that a skill that is basically a mana dump, can't function as a positive mana dump, and is instead a mobility tool to only be used after Displace/Corps/Dualcast/Swiftcast has been exhausted.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

If I just want to dump 10/10 Mana before I Manafication or spend a Verquick proc, Reprise is there.

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When looking at opportunity cost for DPS, you look at what the classes filler spell is. In the case of RDM the filler spell is the combination of Jolt II into VA/VT or VS/VF into VA/VT.

So the average PPS for JII -> VA/VT is: (250 + 310) / 5 = 112.

and the average PPS for JII -> VA/VT is: (270 + 310) / 5 = 116.

Note that these casts do not even include how much the B/W mana are worth.

The PPS of Reprise is: 220/2.2 = 100.

Reprise has less potency than even your filler spell, which means it is in all cases a DPS loss, except when you need ABSOLUTE mobility, beyond the tools described. This will also be exagerated by the the lower natural recast from any SpS, since all weapon skills are not affected. An extreme example as well is that Reprise does the same PPS as Spamming Jolt II if not less from SpS and even less when you consider B/W mana gain. Its that low. Jolt II spam is a better option. [250/2.5 = 100PPS]

This does not even count the 45-80+ potency from the B/W mana. At 300 potency it was in much better shape. A loss still, but not like this.

Using it to dump your gauge before Manafiction to guarantee a proc, by preventing overcap from 50 50 won't be worth it. Youll lose 20 DPS + 3 B/W mana potency (about 40 at max) compared to the 70-110 potency loss from reprise [12*2.2 + 45-80 B/W man].

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Its silly that a skill that is basically a mana dump, can't function as a positive mana dump, and is instead a mobility tool to only be used after Displace/Corps/Dualcast/Swiftcast has been exhausted.

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Alright, since I have been presented with numbers I will concede the point.

Out of curiosity though, what's our breakpoint here? At what minimum potency would it be a positive gain to spend 10/10 Mana instead of overcapping?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Alright, since I have been presented with numbers I will concede the point.

Out of curiosity though, what's our breakpoint here? At what minimum potency would it be a positive gain to spend 10/10 Mana instead of overcapping?

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I would say that would be [JII -> VA/T] + the value of 1 B/W mana. Not adjusting for SPS. [[560/5] * 2.2] + 7~9 = 246 + 7~9 = 252-254 is the minimum. Brain is getting foggy though. Need to nap before SHB.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Alright, since I have been presented with numbers I will concede the point.

Out of curiosity though, what's our breakpoint here? At what minimum potency would it be a positive gain to spend 10/10 Mana instead of overcapping?

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It would need to be at least 257, the average potency of spellcasting. (250+320)/2 and then adjusted for a 2.2s GCD down from 2.44. (The 320 accounts for Verslowspell’s 50% to increase next Jolt by 20). note this is specifically in regards to using it as a mana dump at 60|60 when Manafication is about to come off cool down. Its potency would need to be significantly higher to warrant using it as an independent attack for movement purposes.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

I would say that would be [JII -> VA/T] + the value of 1 B/W mana. Not adjusting for SPS. [[560/5] * 2.2] + 7~9 = 246 + 7~9 = 252-254 is the minimum. Brain is getting foggy though. Need to nap before SHB.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It would need to be at least 257, the average potency of spellcasting. (250+320)/2 and then adjusted for a 2.2s GCD down from 2.44. (The 320 accounts for Verslowspell’s 50% to increase next Jolt by 20). note this is specifically in regards to using it as a mana dump at 60|60 when Manafication is about to come off cool down. It’s potency would need to be significantly higher to warrant using it as an independent attack for movement purposes.

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And since SE loves their round numbers ending in 0... at least 260p.

Well, here's hoping it gets buffed before any part of the melee combo does...

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

And since SE loves their round numbers ending in 0... at least 260p.

Well, here's hoping it gets buffed before any part of the melee combo does...

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I think 300p would have been just fine. It was in a place where careless use was a loss, but intelligent use facilitated a gain.

Well... Yoshi-p himself presented reprise as being something you'd be using during movement when you couldn't cast anything else... so maybe that's their goal to the skill anyway?

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Originally Posted by Nezia

Well... Yoshi-p himself presented reprise as being something you'd be using during movement when you couldn't cast anything else... so maybe that's their goal to the skill anyway?

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Problem is it's a very niche case where you'll be moving enough that it's not a loss.

Indeed. Just look at Scathe - same purpose for BLMs but the damage loss is so significant (being unaspected means it inherits no bonuses from AF or UI) that it's hardly worth it to use, especially during Astral Fire when total MP is finite. Besides that, a mastery of Triplecast and Swiftcast has historically proven sufficient for the same purposes most of the time, and ShB's additions granted them even more instants to push away from Scathe.

In our case we may not have Triplecast, but we do have slide-casting, Dualcast, our existing melee skills, and slightly greater overall mobility than BLM. Reprise was never necessary or even particularly appealing for on-the-go damage for RDMs.

What was appealing was its potential as a means to cheaply dump Mana from a distance that was in danger of overcapping, either due to RNG or plain being unable to reach the boss once you got over 80/80 Mana. But if it's less of a loss now to just overcap your Mana, then we'll never willingly touch it.