Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

And you clearly never played any other MMO in your life other then this one.

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Dont feed the troll guys! ^^

I dont even play bard, but after reading how everyone feels about it, and certain aspect of the class AS A WHOLE, meaning its mechanics, the base of the class (mobility with supportive abilities with lower, REASONABLE damage), has been shattered.

I personally cant give any thoughts on how they could go about changing it, considering its not even at 50 yet, but i DO see some interesting ideas here being thrown around by the community.

Maybe ill look into being a bard if some of these changes go through :3

OH, and for this guy, before he decides to fire shots at me, I myself have played FFXIV, WoW and Archeage. Pls...

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

no you all are you got to think technical and strategical with the bards now. they improved them. you just need to look at it a little longer then 5 mins before coming to a conclusion

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

And you clearly never played any other MMO in your life other then this one.

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You don't main Bard, you don't have the job at 60, and you don't even know how Bards are supposed to work unlike career Bards who have mained the class ever since they started. Yet here you are, acting like such a know-it-all and insulting actual Bards who actually know why the 3.0 Bard is currently problematic.


This is why people shouldn't make snarky comments on things they know nothing about.

you don't have to main a class to know it. i may not have it at 60 yet but i can already see the differences to you all are moaning about it begin how it is broken

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

you don't have to main a class to know it. i may not have it at 60 yet but i can already see the differences to you all are moaning about it begin how it is broken

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Proves my point even further.

If you seriously think you don't need to max out a class and master it to "know" how it works, they you clearly don't know how it works.

Having leveled a class is one thing. Actually mastering it AND knowing how to use it is another thing. And the first step of mastering a class is... you've guessed it. Reaching the level cap and gaining access to all of its skills. That's MMORPG 101 Basics right there, mate.

I swear, this feels like deja vu. There was another non-Bard in this thread some time ago who was making the same asinine and smart-ass comments as you are now, and I just shut him down on the spot. Feel free to scroll back several pages back, because I'm not re-posting my argument.

Case in point:

If you don't understand why career bards are complaining that 3.0 "destroyed" their class, then you haven't mastered the class enough to even know where they are coming from. AKA, you don't know what you're talking about, so you should probably just stop adding fuel to the fire.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

you don't have to main a class to know it. i may not have it at 60 yet but i can already see the differences to you all are moaning about it begin how it is broken

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until u play it at max lvl , with all the skills , similar gear to the other DPS on ACTUAL content u dont see the whole picture......hell the other day a BLM was so happy to break 10k dmg....and i was what? ...the WAR then started talking about 11k FELL cleave crit ....i was ok they have big crits so what....i have....this awesome song that nullifies next debuff/dot.....

ok i was like...



https://secure.static.tumblr.com/e65...-cry-a-lot.jpg

Did everyone jump ship to the other BRD is broken thread?

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Originally Posted by Intellion

You don't main Bard, you don't have the job at 60, and you don't even know how Bards are supposed to work unlike career Bards who have mained the class ever since they started. Yet here you are, acting like such a know-it-all and insulting actual Bards who actually know why the 3.0 Bard is currently problematic.

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Well, technically, since apparently all your 2.0 expertise is now null and void, you don't know much about the class either lol.

The biggest issue with this poor thread is that even when they buff minuet so people can stop crying about auto attacks, people are still going to cry about having no auto attacks.

Maybe they'll just remove the channel on the stance so people can switch for Empyreal burst and then go back to target strafing for the rest of whatever fight they're in so they can remain in the glory bard days. I dunno.

There is not one BRD issue, there are a few separate ones of which most are related to WM.

1. Playstyle - Drastic change when turning on WM, slapped on skill from MCH that doesn't fit the kit, loss of mobility, cast times.
- 1.1 Cast times: Cast times don't work well with a class that has tons of OGCD's with a refreshing OGCD and especially a class that needed double buff weaving to stack damage to even come close to other dps.
- 1.2 Mobility: Besides the fact that we suddenly have this change of super mobile class to a turret, BRD also lacks movement supportive skills while in caster mode (outside of repel which doesn't do it).

2. DPS - This one can be separated into a few things.
- 2.1 Lowest single target dps: The BRD even in an optimal setting (on a dummy with WM activated) is behind in dps compared to all dps (yes even MCH by a bit) also behind the str specced WAR's.
- 2.2 High Risk, No reward: Now here is the other huge flaw, by going into WM, the BRD essentially becomes a caster comparable to BLM/SMN sacrificing auto attacks, mobility, OGCD flow yet the gain (880~930 without WM vs 920~980 with WM) is so small vs the huge increase in risk that it's absolutely not worth taking the risk of turning WM on in an actual fight.
- 2.3 Stats, not working as promised: Skilspeed was supposed to increase our dot dmg in 3.0. Well it does nothing at all to dots.
- 2.4 Stat scaling: BRD is a class that scales really well from a secondary stat namely crit. But with the new scaling there is not enough crit gear yet to bring our crit rate back where it was before 3.0 which in return doesn't let us scale properly.
- 2.5 Barrage change/nerf: I personally like how you don't have a distinction of good/bad barrage anymore (quadbarrage vs tripple barrage before), but you can't disagree that the overal potency of this skill got lowered even if you use it on EA.
- 2.6 Auto attacks: Det got nerfed, with that auto attacks on non WM BRD got nerfed, which due to how BRD works (always able to keep auto attacking) is a dps loss. And then we have WM which doesn't really compensate enough for turning off auto attack.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

And you clearly never played any other MMO in your life other then this one.

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I've played many and that's why I said you have no idea what you're talking about.

Not max level yet. Don't like the changes. Don't need max level to understand this. If I wanted a cast bar i would play a caster. Enough said, no one has the right to tell people they can't like or dislike something unless they are max level. Who do you think you are trying to tell people what they can and can't feel. Gtfo

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

you don't have to main a class to know it.

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I disagree with the above statement, its one thing to make a comment, but those of us at 60, and have been playing working on our tombs or hive stuff, know how gimped it can be.

we don't even let seasoned bards make irrational comments without backing it up with some numbers/proof. etc, but comments from someone at 60 and has played the class for some time.. say has an ilvl 165 or up.. I would say carries much more weight than anything you have to say. its called being creditable, and your really not sorry. pretty much just that simple.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

you don't have to main a class to know it. i may not have it at 60 yet but i can already see the differences to you all are moaning about it begin how it is broken

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Yeah, no.

And i wish everyone with this opinion would just leave these threads, regardless of your opinion. The only thing that's good for is perpetuating hearsay.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Not max level yet. Don't like the changes. Don't need max level to understand this. If I wanted a cast bar i would play a caster. Enough said, no one has the right to tell people they can't like or dislike something unless they are max level. Who do you think you are trying to tell people what they can and can't feel. Gtfo

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The argument was towards someone who isn't maxed and says bard dps is fine. They clearly have no idea what they're talking about - because that is simply not the case. bard is gimped right now.

I will say just because one has a class at 60 does not mean the person knows how to play the class, i have a scholar at 50 and really do not know what i am doing for the most part.
Just to clear the whole you don't have a class at 60 , that portion is nonsense, lol.
Topic on hand, when doing solo content or even dungeons as Bard with another dps it does not seem bad, but go as 2 Bards for the new dungeons or heck even multiple Bards in the Primals.. yeah it is then evident
Dps is soo utterly slow with multiple Bards in a group, and currently at 59 i really have been struggling trying to cap it, just does not feel good playing it anymore. Also comes case in point mana or Tp has not been a issue either thus far so i can foresee more and more groups possibly limiting the amount of Bards that join (Party Finder). It is rather sad. However, and maybe some of you have not read or heard that SE will be making changes.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I will say just because one has a class at 60 does not mean the person knows how to play the class, i have a scholar at 50 and really do not know what i am doing for the most part.
Just to clear the whole you don't have a class at 60 , that portion is nonsense, lol.

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Then we should give even less of a damn of the opinions of uncapped players.

If we're going to assume opinions of lv60s are useless, that flat-out invalidates everyone else.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

The argument was towards someone who isn't maxed and says bard dps is fine. They clearly have no idea what they're talking about - because that is simply not the case. bard is gimped right now.

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Ah teaches me to speed read at 2 am. Was having a rough night.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Not max level yet. Don't like the changes. Don't need max level to understand this. If I wanted a cast bar i would play a caster. Enough said, no one has the right to tell people they can't like or dislike something unless they are max level. Who do you think you are trying to tell people what they can and can't feel. Gtfo

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You're fundamentally misunderstanding the conversation unless I skipped someones comment that specifically stated this was about liking how the job felt. People can have their feelings about this either way, but you also must realize you need to be a certain level to have a preference on if you like the casting bar or not because you don't get it until 52, so you simply cannot say for sure other than an uninformed opinion. I'm not interested in uninformed opinions, it brings nothing to the table.

The discussion wasn't about liking the job at all.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

you don't have to main a class to know it. i may not have it at 60 yet but i can already see the differences to you all are moaning about it begin how it is broken

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If you don't main the class, then just leave - your opinion is not valid here.

As has been stated literally hundreds of times in this thread by career bards, we don't want to be #1 dps, we want to be good enough so that we still get invited to things. We don't want to be bow wizards, we want the playstyle and feel of the job that we fell in love with for 2 years. We want to use more than ONE of our level 50+ abilities without losing that playstyle that we love.

NINJA:
Kiss of the Wasp. Level 6 toggle. Increase damage by 20%
Level 1 attack Spinning Edge has potency 150, (or 180 with KotW) Level 130 Weapon damage: 57

BARD:
Wanderer's Minuet. Level 52 toggle (with a 3 second cast). Increase damage by 20% (and turns off auto-attack).
Level 1 attack Heavy Shot has potency 150 (180 with 1.45s cast time with WM) Level 130 Weapon damage: 51

I think a very, simple fix to the issue would be to simply remove that bolded bit, (the casting time) and adjust the underlined parts, (Weaponskill Potency and/or weapon physical damage) to be where they need to be for job balance.

I'm a Lvl 57 Bard, Lvl 50 everything else pre-Heavensward. I really enjoy all the jobs a lot, but I have always mained bard because it was a job I could shoot bad-guys with while running. I would like for it to go back to being that. Casting time is not needed in this job for balance. Other things can be tweaked for that.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

Well, technically, since apparently all your 2.0 expertise is now null and void, you don't know much about the class either lol.

The biggest issue with this poor thread is that even when they buff minuet so people can stop crying about auto attacks, people are still going to cry about having no auto attacks.

Maybe they'll just remove the channel on the stance so people can switch for Empyreal burst and then go back to target strafing for the rest of whatever fight they're in so they can remain in the glory bard days. I dunno.

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from what i've seen of parses that style is basically the same as perma WM except you get all the mobility you usually got.

for exact numbers the one i saw had it perma WM sitting at 830 and WM for barrage and opener sitting at 819.

while these numbers are pretty low for a bard i don't actually know what Ilvl the player was using at the time. all i know is that playstyle should still do about the same amount of damage difference regardless of Ilvl and since the parses were all done by the same player the skill of the player was the same throughout the tests so i'd say it's fairly reliable as a comparison thing.

def not a THIS IS WHAT BARDS CAN DO type of thing though XD

Yea I think most of us lifetime bards are more frustrated with the nerfs to our bread and butter than anything else. It wasn't needed. The auto attack changes in particular then pretty much forcing a really bad song on us that completely F's bard's original play style was not a help either. The barrage change made me scratch my head the most. I get why they did it so barage could be useful in minuet but boy is that an understated nerf.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

The barrage change made me scratch my head the most. I get why they did it so barage could be useful in minuet but boy is that an understated nerf.

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I'm starting to wonder if this wasn't a response to make the ability more in-line with Wildfire damage.

For those who don't understand how most Bards and Machinsts feel about Heavensward, I'd like to refer you to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tIhwITwhSg Bard/MCH are Charlie Brown.

Again...I repeat... "I got a rock..."

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Originally Posted by Linadae

For those who don't understand how most Bards and Machinsts feel about Heavensward, I'd like to refer you to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tIhwITwhSg Bard/MCH are Charlie Brown.

Again...I repeat... "I got a rock..."

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I'm a WHM main and my husband is a BRD main. We do all our MSQs and leveling on our mains together. This is pretty much what it was like from level 52 on. Especially level 58.

Me: Level 58! Yes, Aero III! An AoE DoT! This is SO badass!
My husband: Glad someone is excited. I just got Warden's Paean.

Patch notes. buffed minuet bard.........

Patch 3.01 was deployed tonight, which included bard adjustments.

The Wanderer's Minuet:

• Action category has been changed from spell to ability.
• Damage increase has been increased from 20% to 30%.
• Cast time has been reduced from 3 to 0 seconds.
• Recast time has been increased from 2.5 to 15 seconds.

Empyreal Arrow:

• Potency has been reduced from 240 to 220.

Sidewinder:

• Potency has been reduced from 150 to 100.
• Potency when target is suffering from either Venomous Bite or Windbite has been reduced from 250 to 175.
• Potency when target is suffering from both Venomous Bite and Windbite has been reduced from 350 to 250.

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Originally Posted by kalasnikov

Patch notes. buffed minuet bard.........

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ings-of-a-Bard

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

http://static1.terrafemina.com/artic...re-622x0-1.jpg

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man you're quick

The fact that they designed MCH with this kind of thing in mind, and the tacked this onto BRD pretty much kills any hope I had of this being removed. I would find it hard to believe they'd eat crow and remove it if they just did it to BRD, but the fact they designed an entire new job with it in mind with the level of homogeneity they're clinging to, as Charlie Brown would say, "Ugh".

I always kinda thought of WM as a focused bard stance.

Like when you noc an arrow and you pull the string back and the more you pulled "cast" the stronger the force of the arrow.

That's me <.< I kinda thought bard should have started with WM :x

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Originally Posted by Noira

I always kinda thought of WM as a focused bard stance.

Like when you noc an arrow and you pull the string back and the more you pulled "cast" the stronger the force of the arrow.

That's me <.< I kinda thought bard should have started with WM :x

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Usually if you noc an arrow you don't sing about how you're going to do it before being able to do it, right? The issue is most people for 2 years enjoyed how the job was built and played, going into the third year they changed it fundamentally. I cannot be upset at anyone that doesn't like it, it's tantamount to turning NIN from MDPS into a RDPS using ninja stars and not meleeing anymore, that's not the job people learned to play and enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Noira

I always kinda thought of WM as a focused bard stance.

Like when you noc an arrow and you pull the string back and the more you pulled "cast" the stronger the force of the arrow.

That's me <.< I kinda thought bard should have started with WM :x

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Probably part of the issue, were WM there 2.0, I probably would have picked another class to level, but it didn't and you shouldn't change an entire class unless it's completely broken, which it wasn't. Instead of giving us fun new abilities they forced a play style change on us.

I'm gonna give it another shot, but my opinion won't change, this shouldn't have happened on an old class, that's what new classes are for, new play styles.

We still have a chance for minuet to be completely changed! Join the chorus! Buffing the stance wont take away my main gripe! I want my mobility back damn it!!!

Sadly, the WM change was pretty much what I was afraid of.
A slap on potency and make it a toggle, nerf the non WM brd a lil more as a bonus to make sure people will use the crappy stance.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Sadly, the WM change was pretty much what I was afraid of.
A slap on potency and make it a toggle, nerf the non WM brd a lil more as a bonus to make sure people will use the crappy stance.

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Um, they've only nerfed EA and Sidewinder, which were only usable under WM anyway. The non-WM Bard is unchanged.

Sidewinder did not require WM

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Originally Posted by Jacost

Um, they've only nerfed EA and Sidewinder, which were only usable under WM anyway. The non-WM Bard is unchanged.

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I thought sidewinder could be used outside of WM? So with sidewinder getting some nerfs, and not using wm to make up for it. Non wm bards did kinda get nerfed. Even though I question it kinda..

Sidewinder had an incorrect tooltip that said it could only be used under WM.

So, currently while it was a nerf to Sidewinder/Emp. Arrow the overall increase was positive in that at average ilvl 171 (180 weapon) I'm seeing parse at 900. Hopefully someone with 190 weapon and 180 otherwise is seeing closer to 1000DPS+

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

So, currently while it was a nerf to Sidewinder/Emp. Arrow the overall increase was positive in that at average ilvl 171 (180 weapon) I'm seeing parse at 900. Hopefully someone with 190 weapon and 180 otherwise is seeing closer to 1000DPS+

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Did a random parse, IL190 weapon @ IL180 total. 3mins exact, no food/pot/party/dragoon, 945DPS

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Did a random parse, IL190 weapon @ IL180 total. 3mins exact, no food/pot/party/dragoon, 945DPS

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I parsed a few times today as bard (leveled machinist to 60 and wanted to compare dps) and was sustaining 980 dps over 5 minutes with party buff / food / hq x dex pot in opener / no drg / no minuet.