One to Fifty, One Zone - Long OP

I like to think that we can move away from guildleves in the future, keeping it as a 'starter' thing in starter zones, to give the casual players the boost they need. The novelty is obviously over after the first time doing a leve, and I frown looking at the same set of 7 constantly.

I want the future to look and be much more open in choices, looking through every zone to find the places you want to level against your favorite mobs and finding the best places to rank.

Guildleves force the mentality that 'this is how we are supposed to rank,' and that guildleves are the focus of the game.

Summary: Guildleves tend to go against what Final Fantasy is to me. I feel tethered down to the same camps with the same quests.

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Originally Posted by Mack

I'm assuming the map will open up a couple more cities(...)

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Very true, that certainly would be grounds for new cities, or towns. I welcome many stops along the way! Eden, I understand your feelings and agree with you as well.

As others have said, I suppose this would be a situation where the issue of compromise and creative handling comes to play.


To late arrivals: This thread calls for a re-design and rebirth of Eorzea's lands, to create milestones and a sense of adventure, by taking us from our city walls to places far away. Diverse and unique environments. With our current world, there is no room at all for expansion or new experiences. With multiple zones with enemies ranging from 1 to 99, what's in our future?

Share your thoughts here about the state of our world map, and help us get the attention of the reps tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Mack

I'm assuming the map will open up a couple more cities, Ishgard is the obvious one and I have no idea what Ala Mhigo is like but perhaps another region up North might have a city or two as well. However this said, that is the reason Anima was implemented because we will most likely be running back to the home cities for leves every once in a while but I don't think its that bad, I think once Ishgard opens up and we can pick up leves there its the same as leaving say San'Doria for Jeuno and staying in a Jeuno for a long long looong time.

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Aside from Ishgard and Ala Mhigo, there's also the city of Sharlavan to the northwest. Ala Mhigo is located in the zone Gyn Abania, Sharlavan is in Dravania, and also Xelphatol to the northeast, Paglth'an to the southeast and O'Ghomoro, which is north of La Noscea on the island of Vylbrand. Then there are also the smaller islands of Theueari, Mazlava and The Cieldales.

So really, we've only seen about half of Eorzea. But even then, if these new zones offer the same variety—or lack thereof—as the existing ones, I don't think they'll be very interesting for too much longer after they're released.

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Originally Posted by Chrees

So really, we've only seen about half of Eorzea. But even then, if these new zones offer the same variety—or lack thereof—as the existing ones, I don't think they'll be very interesting for too much longer after they're released.

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Precisely, Chrees.

What purpose could they serve, if each zone only added another bloated map, with no distinct level range or purpose? And I worry a bit, because it would not be appropriate to only add these missing areas the right way (with paths for progression, unique environments).

Because our current zones shouldn't be left behind the way they are, for 'new' zones. These areas deserve a second chance. This world is important to me. Thanalan, La Noscea, the Black Shroud, Coerthas...

What's in store for our world, Square Enix? Will we have a true adventure from 1 to 50?

Thanks everyone, for keeping this thread alive through the long weekend, and for almost an entire *week*! Let's make sure we're not ignored tomorrow.

I'll reiterate again that I don't like having mobs from rank 1 through 99 in starting zones. It feels like the adventure is over before it has even started. But I wanted to mention something about the current "fade to black" zone changes that are present in the game, and what they say about the world. I'm referring to the non-seamless transition when moving between Thanalan and the Shroud, Coerthas and Mor Dhona, etc.

Yesterday I decided to take a run around various parts of the world. Exploring the world is one of my favorite things to do in an MMO, and while Final Fantasy XIV's world at present lacks diverse areas with distinct local identities, I wanted take a little trip. I wandered around the southern Shroud into Thanalan and back. Then I teleported to Camp Bentbranch and ran from there over to Camp Crimson Bark and all the way into Mor Dhona. Once in Mor Dhona I went clockwise to Camp Brittlebark, around to Camp Revenant's Toll, and then into Coerthas, where I finally logged off. Yes, I realize that my choice of path was insane; I did it just for kicks, dying several times.

So, on to the point: I was thinking about the "fade to black" zone lines as I ran across several of them yesterday. Unlike FFXI, the next zone starts loading before you reach the "zone line". There's a certain point that the game starts to "zone" you before you actually hit the little arrow on your mini-map. If you pass this invisible point you will zone no matter what, it seems. You can stop in your tracks and wait for it to happen, or you can continue running toward the "zone arrow" on your mini-map. You can even be in the middle of a battle: I tried pulling a couple of the marmots in Thanalan on the zone to the Shroud and zoned automatically while I was fighting. I started the zone process when I moved in to fight the marmots, and when the game was ready it faded to black and zoned me before I defeated them :P I also tried running as fast as I could toward the zone lines a couple of times. Possibly due to lag, I was able to get to the arrow on the mini-map twice before the screen faded to black. There is actually an invisible wall there that doesn't show up on the map, so my character kind of did the moonwalk for a couple of seconds, running in place until the black load screen finally triggered. The loading screen itself is very short: only a couple of seconds. It seems a lot faster than in FFXI, probably because the next zone is already loading in the background before any fade to black occurs.

That made me think: I wonder if the loading screen was even a necessity. Perhaps they could have had the forest run smack into the desert in a little loading passageway. However, since that would look strange, and designing a transition area would have been a lot of work, they created a fade-to-black. It could also be that they designed the five regions completely separately and just pieced them together at the last minute using the fade-to-black loads. It seems like the five regions function like lego blocks, which the designers sort of stuck together at the end. They may have considered having more areas, such as something between Thanalan and the Shroud, but they didn't have the development time to do it.

I'm not arguing against loading screens in this post: while I'd prefer a seamless and diverse world, I'd gladly sacrifice seamlessness in favor of diversity. But I do think that FFXIV's current fade-to-black loads seem a little too convenient, like there wasn't enough of a plan for how the world should fit together. Even the map shows a wall a little past the zone arrows. There isn't an open passageway indicating that the zone connects with something else (like in FFXI maps); the arrow says "zone", but the map says "dead end, actually". I guess they just didn't want to have to edit the map when they added new zones.

I apologize for the meandering nature of this post. My point is that it feels like the game was developed without an overarching vision for the world and how it should fit together. As a result, the current world lacks a feeling of cohesion. I think that's one reason why my in-game experience yesterday felt like I was crossing between separate "modules" rather than walking around a continent.

This problem could be solved by adopting ideas presented elsewhere in this thread. A major map redesign would be best, resulting in distinct areas that flow together in a natural progression (with or without load screens). The second-best option would be to make existing sub-zones much more distinct. In such a case I think it would still be necessary to better "sell" the fact that the larger areas connect together, such as more trees near a zone into the Shroud.

Whatever changes are made to Eorzea in the future, they need to emphasize that this is a unified world. As you leave town and move from zone to zone you can feel yourself striking out into the world, getting farther and farther from home. That's when "running through a zone" starts to feel more like "embarking on a journey".

The Garlean Empire hasn't invaded the three starter cities has it? I think if the plan to create a more lively/dangerous/epic(I know cliche, sorry) tone or sense to Eorzea is this invasion or impending one then the zones would only make sense to be altered for the most part. Garlean experiments or attack strategies could wind up dis-shoveling and refacing the current zones in terms of mobs, monuments, and possibly(hopefully) geography. I don't actually think this will be the cause. I'm just pointing out how easy this can be to work into lore. If just one guy can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVs4p...embedded#at=19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-m31...el_video_title

Then I'm not sure what the big deal would be, especially if they already have a starting template they can just improve upon. I realize the coding and implementation would add loads of time to the process...but still.

AtryxEtair, I'd love to see the videos you tried to post, but the links are broken! :(

So I went into casiopea hollow to do a behest, the place looks like the bottom of a fish tank which is cool but when I get to the final enemy of the behest i find 3 aldgoats. Cman sick contradiction. starburst anyone lol

People are kind of getting carried away here.

I can see them making adjustments to the camps and relevant guildleve levels... but redesigning the zones or anything to that effect is totally infeasible for SE.

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Originally Posted by AtryxEtair

The Garlean Empire hasn't invaded the three starter cities has it? I think if the plan to create a more lively/dangerous/epic(I know cliche, sorry) tone or sense to Eorzea is this invasion or impending one then the zones would only make sense to be altered for the most part. Garlean experiments or attack strategies could wind up dis-shoveling and refacing the current zones in terms of mobs, monuments, and possibly(hopefully) geography. I don't actually think this will be the cause. I'm just pointing out how easy this can be to work into lore. If just one guy can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVs4p...embedded#at=19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-m31...el_video_title

Then I'm not sure what the big deal would be, especially if they already have a starting template they can just improve upon. I realize the coding and implementation would add loads of time to the process...but still.

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They can add it into lore but that alone requires a lot of work, I would be just as happy (like I've said before already) if I patch up my game one day, log in, and everything is changed.

BTW tomorrow is Monday, just sayin'.

One problem with the direction this thread is headed is that it relies on the old sense of progression from FFXI, something that simply cannot exist in FFXIV because of its time saving features. I think most of you would be disappointed if the developers added every suggestion exactly as you want. You would find a memorable journey once, and then everyone would be teleporting everywhere just as they are doing now. I had a sense of wonder when I ran from Gridania all the way to La Noscea.

So the essence of what you are all asking for is a reason to see these different places on the map.. presumably because you won't go there unless your hand is forced? This is a two part problem. One, you players need to be more open to creating your own content. I have had the most fun in this game outside guildleves, but the rest of you are trapped in your own prisons so to speak. There is a wide game world there, go explore it, go join the player created activities, or create some yourselves. The second half is that you identify a true problem in the game design - that unless the game design forces everyone's hand, you can't count on your own free choices because you won't be able to fight the masses. Same reason people complained that nobody would party in somewhere other than Valkurm Dunes, even though they could. Same reason people complain about teleporting even though at any time they can choose not to teleport. They know that unless enough people are in the mix with them, they'll be alone with their wishes. I'd like to think there's a compromise here. What you're really asking for is a limiting of transportation, since the game already flows from camp to camp (whether redesigned or not). I don't think everyone needs to deal with that outcome so I wonder if people can't just form a linkshell and go grinding in creative spots? I guess I'm just trying to say, how much of your wishes could be fulfilled by yourself regardless of what the dev team does?

No one wants to level 1-50 in the same zone even if you can. This is a problem with the copy/pasta thing mainly. Wind would be taken out of the sails of this thread if Thanalan was truly 5 distinct areas with strong monsters separating each camp from lower camps. With the copy/pasta though there isn't much difference is there? I have skipped all over all 3 zones during my leveling and I've enjoyed the changes of scenery.

With that said I do believe in the reward of progression and support the OP. I'm not sure if this thread is headed in a direction that presents a sound argument.

Neptune I hear ya and I definitely don't want my hand forced in a certain direction but if leves were to stay central, I think if they balance them out across all crystals and all levels, they can still provide a variety in map design (which is the main topic here, not really the progression per se) and allow for a lot of choice. Now lets say leves were still a good option for gil and armor and whatever other prizes but were nerfed a little, but stayed balance, I think this would get people choosing different regions to explore to do both their leves in and perhaps grind if its the more viable option. I don't think it should necessarily go FFXI's route 100% but I remember countless times in XI where I didn't go with the "norm" since there was a limit really. When Valkurm was full to the brim I have had several parties in the dungeon in Peninsula for instance; of course the choices were a little limited or maybe people didn't explore alternatives often since people like to go with what works generally, I think FFXIV can remedy this by giving people balanced options.

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Originally Posted by AtryxEtair

The Garlean Empire hasn't invaded the three starter cities has it? I think if the plan to create a more lively/dangerous/epic(I know cliche, sorry) tone or sense to Eorzea is this invasion or impending one then the zones would only make sense to be altered for the most part. Garlean experiments or attack strategies could wind up dis-shoveling and refacing the current zones in terms of mobs, monuments, and possibly(hopefully) geography. I don't actually think this will be the cause. I'm just pointing out how easy this can be to work into lore. If just one guy can do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVs4p...embedded#at=19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-m31...el_video_title

Then I'm not sure what the big deal would be, especially if they already have a starting template they can just improve upon. I realize the coding and implementation would add loads of time to the process...but still.

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New link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVs4p...embedded#at=19

It should link to other, but they were posted earlier in this forum, I was just brings them back up.

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One problem with the direction this thread is headed is that it relies on the old sense of progression from FFXI, something that simply cannot exist in FFXIV because of its time saving features. I think most of you would be disappointed if the developers added every suggestion exactly as you want. You would find a memorable journey once, and then everyone would be teleporting everywhere just as they are doing now. I had a sense of wonder when I ran from Gridania all the way to La Noscea.

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I don't understand why XI's sense of progression cannot exist in XIV. XI's sense of progression was not even a problem nor was it a feature that revolved around a huge amount of time. The time sinks were concentrated in a) waiting for a party and b) the endless xp grind (pre abyssea). SE is obviously going to keep the leve system which is great for casual players, much like FoV was in XI. How does re-making the environment so that it adds a sense of your character progressing through the world, gives it a feel of adventure, exhilaration and vibrancy - going to increase the time sink?

In XI we could outpost warp from area to area or teleport to certain ones and each had a loading screen involved. If we kept teleporting to new areas how would it be any different in XIV? It didn't ruin the diversity of zones in XI and it wouldn't ruin the diversity of zones in XIV (if they were redone).

I also feel that the anima system will be reworked once a mount system is introduced. SE wants to put more gil sinks in the game, a mount system is going to be one of them and they are going to want people to use the mounts over anima from traveling from area to area. They screwed up from the start with this though and now they're trying to fix it.

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Originally Posted by AtryxEtair

New link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVs4p...embedded#at=19

It should link to other, but they were posted earlier in this forum, I was just brings them back up.

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Well... This is all well and nice but... Now I'm expecting something like this to appear as an end game area in ffxiv. (Yes... I know I'm absolutely insane...)

Found also this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-m31...eature=related

Really nice. Can't wait to see that area in game, one day..

I think simply world shadows would help very much so. If they could implement this I'm pretty sure it would tide off the rage that is related to the zones of this game... Just for a day... no an hour... no... a minute... ok nevermind. But world shadows are something I'm sure all of us want. Our computers may light on fire, but it would be nice.

(Idc if I'm using the correct terminology but by world shadows I mean tree's and such casting decent shadows.)

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Originally Posted by Neptune

One problem with the direction this thread is headed is that it relies on the old sense of progression from FFXI, something that simply cannot exist in FFXIV because of its time saving features. I think most of you would be disappointed if the developers added every suggestion exactly as you want. You would find a memorable journey once, and then everyone would be teleporting everywhere just as they are doing now.

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Good to see I'm not the only one who was thinking that while reading this thread. Not to mention XI isn't a great template to copy because the "direction" you progressed was determined by trends created by the players. Which, believe it or not, is exactly what happened in XIV. Instead of being starter city => Valkurm => Qufim => Kazham => Altepa and so on, its basically Thanalam camps due to everyone hanging around Ul'dah.

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So the essence of what you are all asking for is a reason to see these different places on the map.. presumably because you won't go there unless your hand is forced? This is a two part problem. One, you players need to be more open to creating your own content. I have had the most fun in this game outside guildleves, but the rest of you are trapped in your own prisons so to speak. There is a wide game world there, go explore it, go join the player created activities, or create some yourselves.

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The lack of story content to push you to those areas didn't help much.

Admittedly, this is a result of the whole sandboxy approach to design team Tanaka took. Sandbox "make your own content" is so niche its not even funny. FFXI did well to hide it through timesinks and all sorts of other things, but both games are scaringly similar in that way.

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The second half is that you identify a true problem in the game design - that unless the game design forces everyone's hand, you can't count on your own free choices because you won't be able to fight the masses.

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This is the reason why quest-based progression has caught on so well in modern design. You flow from one spot to the next with hints on where to go next once you're done with that area.

The problem is most of the people who jumped on here come either from games where your progression path is decided for you by the game itself (WoW, LotRO, CoH) or by the players (FFXI). The former has a slim chance of happening in a world where you have multiple classes to level (as much as I want it to become part of XIV), and the latter lacks the necessary amount of content to make it possible.

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Originally Posted by Rane

Whatever changes are made to Eorzea in the future, they need to emphasize that this is a unified world. As you leave town and move from zone to zone you can feel yourself striking out into the world, getting farther and farther from home. That's when "running through a zone" starts to feel more like "embarking on a journey".

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Thanks again for another thoughtful post, Rane. I also have sensed the lack of cohesion.

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Originally Posted by Richard

SE is obviously going to keep the leve system which is great for casual players, much like FoV was in XI.

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:) And even if the world received a real makeover, players still have reasons to venture to alternative areas, such as Buburimu versus Valkurm. Especially if the reward system is adjusted so they are all worthwhile. It'd be little different than the popular quest hubs/towns nowadays which are found in most other game worlds. All of Azeroth's low level zones are completely viable options for taking characters through.


Eastern time has since rolled over. Here's to hoping for a crown!

All we ask of Square Enix is to share with us their plan for this world.

Or, whether they have one at all.

Where do they truly see us a year from now? Where do they see new players? Or us as we rank a third, fourth, fifth class? Are we still in one zone? In four zones? Crisscrossing between 4 zones: Desert, Forest, Grass, and Rock? From 1 to 50? And in an expansion pack, are we still in these four zones, heading from 50 to 99?

Is anything being done? What did that Japanese post by Yoshida truly mean? What's the 'overhaul'? What's the 're-design'?

Is it more camps, or a refurbished, new world?

This thread has called for an adventure by multiple paths, through all kinds of unique and diverse environments, further and further from home. With challenge and adventure and a strong sense of progression with each area reached, and conquered. Regions which contain zones which serve as stepping stones in our character's journeys as we train them in new jobs, from 1 to 50.

At the very least, we call for a simple answer: Yes or no.


I hope you all know I seriously never expected this thread to receive this level of attention. But, I'm humbled and grateful at the support this thread has been given, and that it's touched so many and provided clarity to some as to what is missing in Eorzea.

Also, I understand it's only natural that as conversation carries for so long, that new points, ideas, and disagreements are brought to surface. Thanks for maintaining the peace here this long.

Happy Monday. :)

looks like 1.18 Producer Letter XI is coming Today or Tomorrow! Yay ~

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post177581

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XI isn't a great template to copy because the "direction" you progressed was determined by trends created by the players.

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Which happens in EVERY mmo.

UTOPIA.

Se Sucks.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Which happens in EVERY mmo.

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WoW and CoH beg to differ.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Admittedly, this is a result of the whole sandboxy approach to design team Tanaka took. Sandbox "make your own content" is so niche its not even funny.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This is the reason why quest-based progression has caught on so well in modern design. You flow from one spot to the next with hints on where to go next once you're done with that area.

The problem is most of the people who jumped on here come either from games where your progression path is decided for you by the game itself (WoW, LotRO, CoH) or by the players (FFXI). The former has a slim chance of happening in a world where you have multiple classes to level (as much as I want it to become part of XIV), and the latter lacks the necessary amount of content to make it possible.

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Quest-based leveling has become the norm in many big MMOs. It's not only a clever way to hide the level grind (immersing you in story so you're hooked and want to see what happens next), but we become used to that kind of structure.

WoW tried to make their questing in Cataclysm a bit less linear. Usually, the tales of each zone were all woven into a bigger story. But this time, the quest lines would start and end within a zone, instead of using breadcrumbs to lead you where they wanted you to go. They gave people the choice, and instead of embracing the freedom, people complained that it felt disjointed (admittedly, I was one of those people).

Most people need that little nudge.

I'm right there with you, Duelle, I'd love to see this game embrace some real quest-based content. I understand that it can't completely incorporate quest-based leveling and make it viable in a multi-class system. But some would break up the leves and give lore-junkies like myself something we're desperately missing.

Again, I think SE is still trying to find that balance between linear storytelling (like FFXIII) and complete freedom (FFXIV). Too much of either keeps a game from living up to its potential.

If this game is truly intended to be a 'sandbox' environment, with little story and no direction, I don't see myself sticking it out much longer. Because this format just isn't working for me.

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Originally Posted by Mack

I will always stand by my plea to nerf leves, make them solo only and give us something better to do because the game is too leve-centric and they are a bore no matter how many different leves you throw at us. They are very simple and very repetitive in nature.

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Originally Posted by EdenArchangel

I like to think that we can move away from guildleves in the future, keeping it as a 'starter' thing in starter zones, to give the casual players the boost they need. The novelty is obviously over after the first time doing a leve, and I frown looking at the same set of 7 constantly.

I want the future to look and be much more open in choices, looking through every zone to find the places you want to level against your favorite mobs and finding the best places to rank.

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I really think this is counter-productive. While repeating the same 7 leves constantly may be boring and repetitive, removing them will probably be worse. While going out and finding the best mobs to level on will be fun, once someone has done that we still have the :

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Originally Posted by Xeno

I'm not going to waste my time by getting lower sp/hr just to be in another zone.

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metality. And rather than repeating the same 7 guildleves, you do what we did back in FFXI. You sit in one zone killing the same mob. At least 7 leves gives you a douzen or so different mob types. I'm sure any that played FFXI will remember Robber Crabs. We fought them in Kuftal, we fought them in Boyahda, fought them in Terrigan. For 10 levels, though the 50's you could fight nothing but Robber Crabs and even those were no different to the crabs we fought in Valkurm and the crabs we fought in Qufim. This is certainly no less repetative than doing leves.

Leves aren't perfect, not by a long shot. There's little diversity, exasperated by the "must have the best sp" metality that makes people repeat the same few leves rather than experiencing the diversity we do have and the ability to give the player control over the level of the mobs in the leve that means even if the 40's people still repeat the same leves they were doing in the mid-20's.

I'd much rather see a lot more diversity in the leves we get, more diversity in the mobs we fight, a fixed diffuculty level based on party size, and no repeating of leves done recently. I'd like to see more of the camps in the starting zones used earlier, with later levels being moved into other zones, either multiple camps per zone before level 40 or leves levels incremented in steps of 5 rather than 10. If we had that along with the changes to the terrain I think we'd all like to see, I think that would help a lot more than limiting leves more.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

WoW and CoH beg to differ.

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How does WoW not have a player defined progression path are you joking me? You quest in area A until they send you to area B until they send you to area C and so forth. Do you know how many player guides I've seen for optimal quest grinding paths? The only difference being that WoW gives you more progression options, which is a main talking point in this thread. More options is always better.

Idk about CoH as I'm sure that 2 people have played it since it was released.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

WoW and CoH beg to differ.

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As far as leveling trends? After BC dropped, Winterspring, EPL, and Sithilus became wastelands(or more wastelandy for Sithilus and EPL loljokez) Players will ultimately skip zones where there is a lesser reward for their effort, thus creating a trend in story progression, like players skipping three zones which were mandatory in vanilla in favor of Hellfire Peninsula. The game didn't force the progression to go that way really, it was a better way to level, so people followed.

All games follow a format as for story and character progression, Start at 'A' and continue to B, then to C, and sometimes D1, or D2, and so on. It's how blanketed it is done, and how much lore, diversity, and drive the game coats so that the player is unable to notice it, or to have it as a bother. The problem with XIV is that the lack of diversity and drive makes the linear nature so glaringly apparent. We don't enjoy the time-sinks given because they are so translucent.

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Quest-based leveling has become the norm in many big MMOs. It's not only a clever way to hide the level grind (immersing you in story so you're hooked and want to see what happens next), but we become used to that kind of structure.

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Personally, I liked that approach much better than L2's and XI's "camp somewhere and kill stuff to level". It also ties your growing stronger to the stories you see as you level.

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WoW tried to make their questing in Cataclysm a bit less linear. Usually, the tales of each zone were all woven into a bigger story. But this time, the quest lines would start and end within a zone, instead of using breadcrumbs to lead you where they wanted you to go. They gave people the choice, and instead of embracing the freedom, people complained that it felt disjointed (admittedly, I was one of those people).

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Guess I'll add that to the list of things they screwed up with Cata, then. I haven't played since sometime after ICC came out, since my work schedule utterly killed all of the time I had set aside for raiding.

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Most people need that little nudge.

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100% agree with you there.

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If this game is truly intended to be a 'sandbox' environment, with little story and no direction, I don't see myself sticking it out much longer. Because this format just isn't working for me.

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I'd say it was supposed to be sandbox under Tanaka. The way he and his team designed the game hints to that. Yoshida might have a different idea of how things should run, for all we know. The "damage" is still done, per se, seeing that there are obviously part of the game's core design that he's not going to be able to get rid of.

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How does WoW not have a player defined progression path are you joking me?

Idk about CoH as I'm sure that 2 people have played it since it was released.

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WoW's progression always involved a quest that directly sent you to the next quest hub. You start in Northshire, you get sent to Goldshire, you then get sent to run an errand to Stormwind where you find more quests, and then get ultimately sent to Westfall, then back to Stormwind to finish the thing with the Defias Brotherhood, then to the Redridge Mountains, then to Darkshire, and so on. I'll concede on one point and one point alone, that being that after Darkshire people started grinding in Scarlet Monastery for drops, even though that only applies to Alliance players as Alliance players have next to no quests that involve Scarlet Monastery.

CoH worked the same way. You got door missions from contacts and after you finished all their missions they would say "thank you for all your help. Here is the name of this guy/gal I know that could also use the help of a hero like you". Something you even got to choose one of several contacts to go to throughout various zones.

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WoW's progression always involved a quest that directly sent you to the next quest hub. You start in Northshire, you get sent to Goldshire, you then get sent to run an errand to Stormwind where you find more quests, and then get ultimately sent to Westfall, then back to Stormwind to finish the thing with the Defias Brotherhood, then to the Redridge Mountains, then to Darkshire, and so on. I'll concede on one point and one point alone, that being that after Darkshire people started grinding in Scarlet Monastery for drops, even though that only applies to Alliance players as Alliance players have next to no quests that involve Scarlet Monastery.

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Just because Blizzard designed quests to help you get from Point A to Point B in a progressive fashion does not mean the playerbase didn't optimize their own leveling and skip areas or do dungeon grinds only or even exp grind on mobs. Daedae said it perfectly already:

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As far as leveling trends? After BC dropped, Winterspring, EPL, and Sithilus became wastelands(or more wastelandy for Sithilus and EPL loljokez) Players will ultimately skip zones where there is a lesser reward for their effort, thus creating a trend in story progression, like players skipping three zones which were mandatory in vanilla in favor of Hellfire Peninsula. The game didn't force the progression to go that way really, it was a better way to level, so people followed.

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Does it really mean anything to compare the two? Not really but player trends will almost always be found in every MMO and they will define how people level. Same way with gear and strategy trends.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Does it really mean anything to compare the two? Not really but player trends will almost always be found in every MMO and they will define how people level. Same way with gear and strategy trends.

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Only true when you're tossing in the element of forced partying. THAT is what made the trends stick and click the way they did in FFXI. I've known plenty of people in WoW who grinded in the Badlands and Desolace instead of sticking around Darkshire. People who stuck around Maraudon and Sunken Temple instead of grinding in Uldaman. Hell, I knew alliance players that decided to hang out in Kalimdor to level rather than level in the Eastern Kingdoms, only setting foot there once they started on the Scholomance Key quest chain and the quests involving the Argent Dawn in the plaguelands.

You're not as tied to the trends of everyone else when you can level on your own.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're not as tied to the trends of everyone else when you can level on your own.

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Enter: Fields of Valor.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Enter: Fields of Valor.

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Right, the most inneficient way to throw gil out (if you're /NIN) or wasting time with longer battles (if you're /DNC). FoV has the additional burden that some of the target mobs are inconvenient as hell to kill. That's a problem WoW doesn't really have. The mountain Dire Wolf you're being sent to kill in the Hinterlands is no more difficult to kill than the gorilla in Feralas. Whereas any tiger is exponentially harder to kill than a crab in XI.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Right, the most inneficient way to throw gil out (if you're /NIN) or wasting time with longer battles (if you're /DNC). FoV has the additional burden that some of the target mobs are inconvenient as hell to kill. That's a problem WoW doesn't really have. The mountain Dire Wolf you're being sent to kill in the Hinterlands is no more difficult to kill than the gorilla in Feralas. Whereas any tiger is exponentially harder to kill than a crab in XI.

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But what does that have to do with the topic at hand? No one was comparing difficulty in leveling. For some jobs, like BST FoV was a huge success (lol). The point is it's not just forced partying. There are always trends set by players and there will always be people who level on their own terms. You've dipped and dodged around every point of fact given to you, which is perfectly fine, but you've made no real headway with your original point.

XIV needs definable progression paths just like every other mmo needs.

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Originally Posted by Richard

XIV needs definable progression paths just like every other mmo needs.

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Truth. ^

There's certainly many modern ways to make all zones of a region unique and enjoyable for everyone. A Mini-Leve & Quest hub area, offering zone specific tasks, work, and story, could truly make the zone unique. Especially when combined with a diverse environment and mob families.

I welcome the leves in this situation, because the Final Fantasy world is different than WoW, in that we don't level alts. The leves, a task-reward system, have been laid down as a brick of the game's foundation. And story quests would provide unique experiences and lore, as well. And with cooldowns on leves with leveling-parties still viable, which I enjoy, I hope everyone can be pleased. And have options.

The possibilities are endless. And because I'm hoping for a new and expansive world, I'd certainly not want the zones to be easily overlooked. I'd enjoy for them all to be attractive. Enough so, that when we level a class to 50, we look forward to going back and trying a new path.


But, in the end, either way, I think we can all still agree that our world needs a makeover. That adventure doesn't happen right outside the city walls.

It all starts at the first page. It all starts here. :)

Well said sio, as always :)

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Originally Posted by Rowyne

Truth. ^

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Amen, il take FFXIs "forced" moving you into different zones to level ANY day over what we have now. There should always be options, and like i thought they meant from the beginning was that leve's were means for quick, more solo based play, were most group play was going to be a mix of quests and camp grinding. I was excited to hear that....but then let down big time.

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Originally Posted by giftforce

People are kind of getting carried away here.

I can see them making adjustments to the camps and relevant guildleve levels... but redesigning the zones or anything to that effect is totally infeasible for SE.

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Well if you're correct then they're screwed, as it'll take a major overhaul for people to come back and pay for the game.

They know this. They aren't stupid.

This is the single biggest thing that has turned me off to this game and makes it EXTREMELY hard for me to log in anymore. I've been playing since September and am still stuck in the starter areas. Still seeing the same environments. This doesn't feel like a MMO to me. I am only rank 32 on my conjurer, but I literally have to get myself psyched for an hour before I can log in to level. What's my motivation? I am currently doing leves in Nophica's Wells and Nanawa Mines. When I get Rank 40 leves, I'll just go to some other camp in Ul'dah that looks exactly the same as every other camp in Ul'dah. And I can do leves that are essentially the same things with different mobs over and over and over and over again. What fun!

I really hate to be a negative nancy, but all the combat changes and job systems and stuff is nice and all. But, for me personally, I just can't bring myself to log into such a boring world too many more times. And I sure as hell am not going to pay to do so anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by kurokawa

Well if you're correct then they're screwed, as it'll take a major overhaul for people to come back and pay for the game.

They know this. They aren't stupid.

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If something major like that doesnt happen expect this game to barely skate by with minimal updates and support. id rather they just do what would get a good chunk of players to come back/ add to what small amounts we have and actually be a worthy numbered FF title.

Like ive said before, if your game is crap, the 3 big things to change that will always get a second look is 1) combat 2) class/advancement system and 3)the big one is a fresh world. If i was someone who tossed this game aside when it first launched, then saw a new pic a year later...with the same world (one of the biggest complaints) id instantly pass on it. But show me a new world and you got my initial attention. A new world/ layout is the biggest "second glance" catch for any game, visuals are what we see first, then we hear about the mechanics.