Inevitable Job Simplifications?

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Originally Posted by Sparkthor

MCH was pretty popular on HW, but it's popularity was probably heavily tied for being part of the best (and only) top raid compo back in time : WAR, DRK, AST, SCH, NIN, DRG, BRD, MCH.
It's kinda strange : bow and gun mage were heavily turned down but performances were here so played.

I however wonder how people can think EW BRD to be the worst iteration as it stricly better than ShB one :
- Loss of many bloodletter/rain due to having one charge, so full CD reset hardly happen and double proc were wasted.
- Need to apply DOT on target in case of mutlti target situation.
- Having dot to roll in not better than having a song active.
- Not being buffed by it's own party abilities.
- Being a 80s rotation job which never/poorly align with standard 2/3min party cd, and never with reopener at 6min.

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- who cares about BL stacks when it only refunds half the CD now? one step forward, two steps back
- multidotting was fun, as was proccing tons of Repertoire with multidotting, why wouldn't I like it if I was interested in playing a DoT job.
- ???
- who cares, any buff that gets applied to brd is taken out of its potency per second, and we lost the crit synergy on Repertoire that would have made getting our own buff more interesting to begin with.
- aligning being a thoughtful exercise and not handed to you on a silver platter is more interesting (see: all the 2min complaints everywhere), and ShB bard had more flexibility to fit different comps. it also wasn't hard to align anyway

all this and ShB bard was worse than SB bard anyway

Anecdotally, I've gone from playing bard as my physical ranged of choice in shadowbringers to only playing it in pvp. Sure you can say it's not much of a horse race but the EW changes really haven't endeared themselves to me. Complete overcorrection on the issues I had with it to the point it's not really enjoyable anymore.

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Originally Posted by Kosachi

-Once again, media tour fixed it and in a pretty amazing way. Song cycle was 2m and RS was 60s. Literally perfect. Two burst phases per cycle. But no. we can't have nice things.

I keep talking about the media tour, I know but f*ck man. We were so close.

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I'm still mad that they removed the 30s Blast Arrow Ready

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Originally Posted by Valence

Yeah we get it,

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Unless you have multiple people living in your head, "we" isn't the word there, you mean "I", as in you're speaking for yourself.

And no, you don't get it, if you think I don't like any complexity or RNG. I just don't like clunky or dumb ones - I like RDM okay, and it's got RNG. You just didn't bother reading and wanted to say something snarky instead of just saying you didn't bother reading my post yet still wanted to reply to it derisively.

Perhaps reading it first next time would prevent you being wrong...or maybe not.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sparkthor

MCH was pretty popular on HW, but it's popularity was probably heavily tied for being part of the best (and only) top raid compo back in time : WAR, DRK, AST, SCH, NIN, DRG, BRD, MCH.
It's kinda strange : bow and gun mage were heavily turned down but performances were here so played.

I however wonder how people can think EW BRD to be the worst iteration as it stricly better than ShB one :
- Loss of many bloodletter/rain due to having one charge, so full CD reset hardly happen and double proc were wasted.
- Need to apply DOT on target in case of mutlti target situation.
- Having dot to roll in not better than having a song active.
- Not being buffed by it's own party abilities.
- Being a 80s rotation job which never/poorly align with standard 2/3min party cd, and never with reopener at 6min.

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Exactly right, I think on all points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sparkthor

MCH was pretty popular on HW, but it's popularity was probably heavily tied for being part of the best (and only) top raid compo back in time : WAR, DRK, AST, SCH, NIN, DRG, BRD, MCH.
It's kinda strange : bow and gun mage were heavily turned down but performances were here so played.

I however wonder how people can think EW BRD to be the worst iteration as it stricly better than ShB one :
- Loss of many bloodletter/rain due to having one charge, so full CD reset hardly happen and double proc were wasted.
- Need to apply DOT on target in case of mutlti target situation.
- Having dot to roll in not better than having a song active.
- Not being buffed by it's own party abilities.
- Being a 80s rotation job which never/poorly align with standard 2/3min party cd, and never with reopener at 6min.

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-Charges were beneficial no ones gonna argue this
-DOTs retaining no synergy isnt a pro at all, and dungeons are less fun now that you cant spam AA or RoD 5 times a second. Making Soul voice very very static as a gauge, borderline contrived even now that it only doesn't accumulate soul if no songs are running and its as trivial as the DNC step execution.
-Having a dot to roll in takes more effort than having ur songs active. making the job less punishing and easier/routine/boring
-tangibly I never cared about this complaint as it only adds something to the invisible measure of dps only parsers can see and is irrelevant in all none dps check content. Plays the same with or without
-Fair

Adding Sidewinder is boring to use, a dot checker is no reduced to fleche. but im not entirely down on EW BRD just needs a few additions to be the most fun ranger with laughable competition from the other 2 jobs ppl main "because i dont have to think"

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Originally Posted by tearagion

- who cares about BL stacks when it only refunds half the CD now? one step forward, two steps back
- multidotting was fun, as was proccing tons of Repertoire with multidotting, why wouldn't I like it if I was interested in playing a DoT job.
- ???
- who cares, any buff that gets applied to brd is taken out of its potency per second, and we lost the crit synergy on Repertoire that would have made getting our own buff more interesting to begin with.
- aligning being a thoughtful exercise and not handed to you on a silver platter is more interesting (see: all the 2min complaints everywhere), and ShB bard had more flexibility to fit different comps. it also wasn't hard to align anyway

all this and ShB bard was worse than SB bard anyway

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do people forget SB BRD was really good?
spoilers

emet was right, destroy the game if they cant retain their past, zenos was right, no thrills to be had. meteon was right, this will only end in misery so let us sing in oblivion

I honestly just miss when jobs were allowed to be complex. MCH and BRD during HW were the most fun any classes have ever been in this game, and the fact they are what they are now? It vexes me.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Unless you have multiple people living in your head, "we" isn't the word there, you mean "I", as in you're speaking for yourself.

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Looking up credentials of some of the posters? you can tell the passionate players who main x Jobs apart from those who don't... And even if you can't find? reading constructive/straight-to-the-point arguments supported with your own in-game experiences matching with what they state gives a lot of credibility and confirmation... vs Bad takes however, from those who support simplifications of Jobs that they barely play in x content i.e. at least Savage or any, ruining the validity of their posts. Specially when coincidentally? its in favor of dumbing down Jobs in all the wrong ways while masking everything they don't like simply as " Janky / Bloat / Clunky "...

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Originally Posted by Videra

I honestly just miss when jobs were allowed to be complex. MCH and BRD during HW were the most fun any classes have ever been in this game, and the fact they are what they are now? It vexes me.

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I honestly really miss Bow Mage. I know Bard aren’t allowed to like it cuz it was wholly unbalanced for an entire expansion or w/e but I still had more fun as a Bow Mage than with anything I have as a level 90 Bard lol. I want the songs back too, it makes literally no sense for them to require a target, deal damage, have a massive cool-down (why are we so exhausted after singing each song that we need 75s before we can start again lol, just make them use MP).

Also it’s a complaint that goes for most jobs but I really hate that ‘support’ in ffxiv is almost entirely passive (though it’s most noticeable on Bard). Your songs are all just damage cooldowns that deal damage (stay there while I sing a song about the travels of a kind Mage, it will physically harm you and make my arrows shoot faster lol), and the support effects are just slapped on top because we all complained about them not being there.

Troubadour and Nature’s Minne may as well be auto-activated, considering every enemy aoe comes exactly 120 seconds apart lol. Then there’s the fact that the effects are functionally redundant (damage reduction and healing increases in a game with infinitesimal damage values and microscopic healing requirements), Warden’s Paean is still so pointless most Bards aren’t aware of existence. And as if having an ability that has no use 99% of the time wasn’t enough, it has a goddamn 45 second cool-down time . On an ability that does essentially nothing! Just because it’s a ‘support’ effect.

Just because ‘supportive’ jobs aren’t very popular in MMOs really doesn’t give them to right to just pretend an entire playstyle doesn’t exist within the majority of final fantasy games lol. Bard is a prime example of how support jobs in FFXIV have been shafted time and time again; Astrologian is the same. And the worst part is, I bet if Yoshi-P was asked about it, he’d say ‘you wanna support the party just be a dancer wwwww’.

Also as an aside, what is Machinist even supposed to be now? It can’t be a selfish dps with sky high damage because it’s a phys ranged, can’t be a support because Dancer. It doesn’t seem fair to relegate it to ‘does lower damage than black Mage and Samurai but you can jump while you attack’ lol

Tl;dr Bow Mage had many, many…many issues but personally I’d rather have enjoyable clunk than a perfect polished poop

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Looking up credentials of some of the posters? you can tell the passionate players who main x Jobs apart from those who don't... And even if you can't find? reading constructive/straight-to-the-point arguments supported with your own in-game experiences matching with what they state gives a lot of credibility and confirmation... vs Bad takes however, from those who support simplifications of Jobs that they barely play in x content i.e. at least Savage or any, ruining the validity of their posts. Specially when coincidentally? its in favor of dumbing down Jobs in all the wrong ways while masking everything they don't like simply as " Janky / Bloat / Clunky "...

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Slow down. Use more periods.

"credentials"? Oh, you mean FFLogs?

Well... First of all, that's PROBABLY against the TOS here.

Secondly, people like me don't violate the TOS and don't run and upload parsers. So the only ones you'd find of me are the blue moons I'm in a run with someone else that uploads them, which is usually a random PF where I ALMOST only play Healers since I don't tend to trust random Healers to not greed DPS and wipe the party.

Thirdly, one does not have to clear Ultimates to have a grasp of Jobs, their strengths and weaknesses, or what makes them fun.

Fourthly, enjoying any given Job is not "support simplifications of Jobs".

Fifthly, Savages aren't even the only place Jobs are used in this game (there's another 90% of game) nor the only part of the game that rotations or fun matter to people.

Sixthly, I'm an omni-main; I play three Healers interchangeably (WHM, SCH, and SGE; basically what I feel like at the time or what the party needs) and a fourth more rarely (because I just don't like AST that much), Tanks the same way (PLD, WAR, and GNB), and three Damage Dealers (SMN, RDM, and MCH in roughly that order, and more rarely, NIN)

Finally, everyone who plays the game can voice their opinion on what is fun. "What I think is fun" is NEVER a "bad take", because it's people saying what they like. It may not be what you like, but "not what you like" isn't the definition of "bad take".

Besides, the other person was saying I don't like complex Jobs. I like GNB, which is probably the most complex of the Tanks, and I liked and played Old SMN back in ShB and SB. So they're clearly wrong. I don't mind complex things some of the time, but I don't like them all the time, and I don't like complexity that doesn't flow well or "feel fun" to me, which a lot of the "complexity" that they like (which seems to be more "proc management", specifically), falls under. DRG is complex but I'm enjoying leveling and playing it and may use it for my melee of choice going forward.

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I think it's more correct to say I like PREDICTABILITY and RELIABILITY.

In some cases, this is RIGIDITY; which is what GNB, DRG, and MCH have in common. I like my DPS rotations either static/always the same (like GNB, DRG, and MCH) or, variable but deterministic/predictable/reliable - that is, where parts can be moved around but not based on a proc system, like WAR (Storm's Eye), PLD (Holy Spirit), WHM (Lilies - which are a DPS tool), and SMN (when to use which Primal); the rotations are static overall, but pieces of them I can move around to suit the situation. For example, I can vary the order of my SMN Primals, but no matter what order I swap them, I'm in control of the variation (it's not random chance and procs) and I'm making the choice of which to use and know what my rotation is under each. Same with PLD and choosing where I want to use HS.

That's not "in favor of dumbing down Jobs", it's "I like meaningful choices that matter, not random procs and unnecessary 'complexity' for the sake of having it".