So you're telling me..

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

I was a problem back in ARR when running coil. There was a time party running double bard because their song could stack, and. I have seen no XXX job when balance was only slightly out of hand. Experience all those in Aegis, a JP DC, would expect worse in NA or EU.

Again when there isn’t a proper tool to measure difficulty (it probably vary fight to fight), difficulty should be out of the equation. Only taken party buff, and mobility/uptime into account

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Yes, this is the reason they started tightening windows and making jobs so similar. Yoshi P saw that culture of party's outright banning jobs from groups and he changed course on balancing.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Yes and no. SAM is pretty heavily locked into a 1min/2min rotation. Yes the stacks make it easier to kind of work around downtime and whatnot, but you have to be extremely careful not to drift in your rotation or you're gonna start missing burst windows. So new SAM may look less rigid, but its still very much in lock step with a pretty strict rotation with only room to drift over into a single GCD.

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Its sen generation is what causes that more than anything. Those things are just annoying at this point.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

That’s merely your opinion. And no, the only parses that matter are the top parses. Those show the potential of the jobs. Reaper is more forgiving than BLM and Samurai, no doubt, but that doesn’t mean it’s blowing them out of the water. At the top the spread is within the margin of error. Same goes for monk.

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It´s not an opinion, it´s how balancing works.

You judge by perfect circumstances, but they´ll never happen permanently. Just look at the healer... one of them could solo-heal, so the other can farm their 100 parse easily. And so the whole group can assist any other teammember too. But it´s not gonna happen in random-groups, the most statics and definately not with casuals. It´s a PvE game and if you just look at the top, you´ll automatically exclude some classes or even a whole part of the community by balancing around a handful of log-farmers. It´s another thing in a PvP game with championship series, where balancing around the top matters way more than about the average.

Just check the logs on each percentile. Reaper is the top DPS on 10,20,30...until 95. This shows that it has a low skill floor, low skill ceiling and short said " It´s broken". MNK directly follows RPR and don´t even outclass him at 100 that hard. And the devs need to balance around that. It´s not a hierarchy and not just an opinion, it´s how things have to work if you want to achieve as much balance as possible and to make the game more enjoyable for everyone on any class.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

Again when there isn’t a proper tool to measure difficulty (it probably vary fight to fight), difficulty should be out of the equation. Only taken party buff, and mobility/uptime into account

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And again.... The more circumstances a class have to care about, the more difficulty it is.

- Positionals
- Buffs / Debuffs
- Dots
- oGCD´s
- Weaving
- Stunlocks
- Uptime
- Max melee range
- Cast time
- Circumstances aka RNG mechanics or a bad tank which mostly cost melee-uptime / positionals
- The amount of buttons you´ve to use to do the same damage as others who rely on 123
- Gauges

DRG has to take care for everything but casttimes. MNK miss the stunlocks and has less buttons, meanwhile RPR has only 123 gameplay and 1 buff to care about. Then you´ve stuff like SMN, which has to care about what... casting times on Ruin, or RDPS classes with either a gauge or DoTs with a long duration, meanwhile they´re able to play any bossmechanic safety and easy down without any damage loss?!

Why do you think so many "Ultimate-boosted" poeple made this with MCH or so?! Because it´s an easy pick to get carried, or atleast a safe pick to execute.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

It´s not an opinion, it´s how balancing works.

You judge by perfect circumstances, but they´ll never happen permanently. Just look at the healer... one of them could solo-heal, so the other can farm their 100 parse easily. And so the whole group can assist any other teammember too. But it´s not gonna happen in random-groups, the most statics and definately not with casuals. It´s a PvE game and if you just look at the top, you´ll automatically exclude some classes or even a whole part of the community by balancing around a handful of log-farmers. It´s another thing in a PvP game with championship series, where balancing around the top matters way more than about the average.

Just check the logs on each percentile. Reaper is the top DPS on 10,20,30...until 95. This shows that it has a low skill floor, low skill ceiling and short said " It´s broken". MNK directly follows RPR and don´t even outclass him at 100 that hard. And the devs need to balance around that. It´s not a hierarchy and not just an opinion, it´s how things have to work if you want to achieve as much balance as possible and to make the game more enjoyable for everyone on any class.

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If you say so.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Chances are that you don't.
I played NIN when it came out and NIN always had Trick Attack.

Granted Trick Attack has become more standardized with time but I dunno if you're under the impression that it's a more recent thing than it actually is.

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The ninja point concerned the sudden need to line everything with trick as like the only optimal path (I played it upon release as well). Ninja became a large focus in raiding (nearly locking it in). Outside of ninja some jobs had different cds for damage increase/ogcds (drg for example) which required planning with different fights. The need to "fit into trick attack" as a metric for opinions of burst design was very frequent.

More recently, im referring to alot of jobs cds coming down to 60s with no punishment for drifts or accounting for it. In the past, You could line up cds at burst's but than know it won't be up at 60s everytime. But I understand that the whole point was the initial burst.

Now we know nearly every job is going to burst at the same intervals. My point is not that this is good or bad but that alot of designs are just getting easier to plan for the sake of..... Um easing optimization. Iron out the wrinkles because those old cds were outdated despite persisting for a long time I guess. Was that part of class design or simply went unnoticed the whole time.

And yes memory is a fickle thing I agree.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Yes, you literally don't know what you're talking about.

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Ok, because I can’t read or anything.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

That’s merely your opinion. And no, the only parses that matter are the top parses. Those show the potential of the jobs. Reaper is more forgiving than BLM and Samurai, no doubt, but that doesn’t mean it’s blowing them out of the water. At the top the spread is within the margin of error. Same goes for monk.

Samurai and BLM are the only jobs in the game that have no party utility whatsoever. Think it’s about time they got some, then this whole nonsense of “they should do more because all they have is DPS” nonsense can just stop. Who am I kidding though, people would just argue then that their preferred job should do more because it’s “harder.”

I play all the melee, and I don’t find samurai to be particularly hard to perform with. It being less forgiving for a mistake doesn’t make it harder. It just makes it less forgiving. Reaper has a solid flow, and it’s quite refreshing to be able to not be locked in to a rigid rotation for once.

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I must have missed the SAM and BLM raid heal that can outheal several tanks while doing very similar dmg, probably forgot to put it on my bars.
How can you type that sentence and then follow it with the next one asking for those jobs to get utility?

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

That’s merely your opinion. And no, the only parses that matter are the top parses. Those show the potential of the jobs. Reaper is more forgiving than BLM and Samurai, no doubt, but that doesn’t mean it’s blowing them out of the water. At the top the spread is within the margin of error. Same goes for monk.

Samurai and BLM are the only jobs in the game that have no party utility whatsoever. Think it’s about time they got some, then this whole nonsense of “they should do more because all they have is DPS” nonsense can just stop. Who am I kidding though, people would just argue then that their preferred job should do more because it’s “harder.”

I play all the melee, and I don’t find samurai to be particularly hard to perform with. It being less forgiving for a mistake doesn’t make it harder. It just makes it less forgiving. Reaper has a solid flow, and it’s quite refreshing to be able to not be locked in to a rigid rotation for once.

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Realistically the people at 95 percentile are playing roughly the same way as the ones at the max ranking, looking at only top spots i think may be misleading because of too little data/crit rng/party team comp/kill time.

Also, i have already made this argument earlier in the thread, but while difficulty is subjective, while looking at fflogs you can clearly see reaper as a class is less susceptible to player skill than others :

if you filter by different percentiles, you can see several class move in the rankings according to ease of play, for example summoner is higher at low percentile and drg is higher at higher percentiles, if you look at reaper it is always number 1, but the lead tends to grow the lower player skill is, which means the difference between a great reaper and a mediocre one is smaller, so while reaper has some non trivial optimization stuff like double or triple enshroud burst windows, you dont need to play that well to perform close to your ceiling comparatively to other classes.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=95
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=75
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/42/#dataset=40

Knowing this, i dont think its unfair to call reaper an easier job to play, and i dont even think its a bad thing, i think its good since its always going to be a broadly appealing class regardless of balance just because of looks and animations alone, but knowing this, right now its 100% overpowered, and i think that in this case the fact thats it also is easy feels exra bad, because it makes you kinda go "whats the point of trying harder for less results on other jobs".

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Originally Posted by Scuoll

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I’m not arguing that it’s definitely more forgiving. That much is clear. I guess some consider that easier. Personally, I don’t. Then again, I don’t find any of the melee particularly challenging, but that is subjective.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

am I going to complain about a 30 second cooldown that has the same potency as healer spells and is able to out heal 2 of the 4 tanks while some melee jobs have nothing while also doing less dmg and reapers say there is nothing wrong with it?
that's a big thinking emoji

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Sounds like a personal problem.