White-mage is doomed - and why

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

ast is loosing the shield i thought

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They’re losing Nocturnal Sect, the shield stance. They’re keeping Neutral Sect, the shield-regen buff. They’ll still have shields for 20s every 120s.

I think this wasn’t what you were really asking though but this goes with what everyone keeps repeating—only WHM lacks aoe shielding but somehow WHM is too “powerful” to receive anything that would make it unique and give it identity.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

No? Where did you even pluck that from?

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From the very quote I was responding to (regarding any mitigation skill needing to be a Role Action) before you turned a question of job identity to solely one of mitigation-parity:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Because you can't have mitigation that every healer doesn't have access to or they'd be mandatory in prog.

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With the categorical division between "shield" and "pure" healers come EW, now of all times would not demand that "pure" healers must have a mitigation tool (as compared to literally any other form of compensatory capacity) or that mitigation skills be made into Role Actions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

With the categorical division between "shield" and "pure" healers come EW, now of all times would not demand that "pure" healers must have a mitigation tool (as compared to literally any other form of compensatory capacity) or that mitigation skills be made into Role Actions.

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It's a division that makes no sense and doesn't seem to stack up in reality once you look beyond WHM.

Again, I'm not trying to say that WHM should get a group shield, but rather it really should bring something of it's own to the party.

There is literally no reason why whm can't have stoneskin 2 back and usable in combat like the other healers.

WHM should not be punished by having less tools simply because its whm. I agree it should bring osmething unique to the table AS WELL though.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

There is literally no reason why whm can't have stoneskin 2 back and usable in combat like the other healers.

WHM should not be punished by having less tools simply because its whm. I agree it should bring osmething unique to the table AS WELL though.

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This is one of the reason why I'd suggest merging Assize with Plenary, albeit with a bit tweaking on Plenary component to minimize wasting its potential. With both merged the lv70 capstone is essentially free to be filled with something else... preferably some sort of utility. I won't know what's the best to fill in this gap 'cause I'm not a game designer. I just think Plenary is one thing that should go away to make room for an additional utility. It's excessive & clunky to use.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Correction, that's literally every healer except WHM.

Don't forget that AST has access to spammable barriers for 20 seconds on a 120 second cooldown. They aren't weak shields either. 625 potency single target and 312 potency party with a built in +20% modifier as well.

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Not only does AST have Neutral, they'll also be keeping the current Collective Unconscious which basically functions as a 10% mitigation for raidwides on half the cooldown of Temperance.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So we're back to "the only possible solution is homogeneity"

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You don't solve homogenization by making one class inferior to all the others.

The Thin Air nerf has me concerned. I don't even endgame but I do remember Wiping City and Dun Scaith at launch and I don't want to go back to those dark days in regards to MP issues.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Again, I'm not trying to say that WHM should get a group shield, but rather it really should bring something of it's own to the party.

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I am totally cool with it bringing something of its own. I'm just not cool with the assumption that "SCH and SGE/AST have X, and thus WHM must get X, despite it being only one of many factors in those jobs' being preferred over WHM." Literally anything else of roughly equal contextual value, please.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You don't solve homogenization by making one class inferior to all the others.

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I never said a unique weakness alone makes for a sufficiently unique job, nor that parity should not be required. "Homogeneity isn't the only solution to imbalance" =/= "Just leave shit imbalanced."

You can have parity without having complete homogeneity. You just fill the otherwise gaping hole with literally anything else of equivalent value in a competitive 8-man environment, rather than, as earlier proposed, turning essential skills (such as any and all forms of mitigation) into Role Actions.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I never said a unique weakness alone makes for a sufficiently unique job, nor that parity should not be required. "Homogeneity isn't the only solution to imbalance" =/= "Just leave shit imbalanced."

You can have parity without having complete homogeneity. You just fill the otherwise gaping hole with literally anything else of equivalent value in a competitive 8-man environment, rather than, as earlier proposed, turning essential skills (such as any and all forms of mitigation) into Role Actions.

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Agreed, my one major point of caution is where people define "parity". I've seen quite a lot of suggestions on the forums over the years that aren't very good. And the reason they're not very good isn't because the suggestion isn't unique or theoretically an interesting bit of design; most of WHM's "suggestions" follow the same vein that the Square designers want for the job. Something that seems interesting or unique on paper but is actually something that the game's combat system cares nothing about. WHM could use self-healing potions faster. It could have a 5 second shorter cooldown on Sprint. Hell, it's historically been cursed with the "has higher healing potency" name (though that hasn't been true in a long time since AST stomps all over its healing potency outside Cure 3). All of those are unique, but they certainly aren't what I'd call advantages.

I'm particularly harping on this point because this is exactly what I mean when I say the massive community circular argument surrounding WHM never actually seeks to -solve- WHM's issues. When I've argued with AST and SCH mains, and they agree WHM needs to bring something unique to the table, they never, ever want it to have anything *useful*. Just something stupid that never translates into a real advantage, like more overhealing or whatever. Hell, technically at this point Holy's stun is an advantage, and you'll find no shortage of ASTs and SCHs kvetching that WHM shouldn't even have that.

In order for WHM to have something interesting or unique that's actually useful, the community would need to come off this vague unspoken assumption that AST and SCH "deserve" mandatory meta slots and WHM can only have "uniqueness" that never threatens them in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

With the categorical division between "shield" and "pure" healers come EW, now of all times would not demand that "pure" healers must have a mitigation tool (as compared to literally any other form of compensatory capacity) or that mitigation skills be made into Role Actions.

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Yep, those Shield healers who have multiple Regens and those "Pure" healers who have multiple Shields.

Shield and Pure healers are a fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

In order for WHM to have something interesting or unique that's actually useful, the community would need to come off this vague unspoken assumption that AST and SCH "deserve" mandatory meta slots and WHM can only have "uniqueness" that never threatens them in the slightest.

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I have yet to see a single post that says AST and SCH "Deserve" mandatory meta slots. I've love for you to prove me wrong if you have the proof, but otherwise, that argument is nothing more than a Strawman.