Whats with people hating F2P?

Yeaaah. Pretty sure all of you are getting trolled, if that wasn't obvious enough. Not only is the OP's original post EXCEEDINGLY contradictory, but taking five minutes to compare FtP and PtP would paint a painfully clear picture of why FtP is generally reviled. Or OP could be farming reply counts. Either way, OP is very well fed.

I think that there has to be some kind of system that would allow more people to play without having to sub. I like that this game has a sub, but there are some of those out there that just can't sub, and not because of money, but because of time. The military is a good example.

Personally, I think it would be great if the game allowed people to login and play up to a maximum time per month un-subbed. Much like the free four days they are doing now. It would be great if the game gave everyone 12 to 24 hours (or some value, etc) that allowed people to play the game each month, would be nice. That wouldn't be concurrent, but total time to play, etc.

Maybe even add in a roll over, so that they can end up saving 36 to 48 hours if they are unable to play for x amount of time.

All numbers would need to be reviewed, but the game doesn't need to be FTP, but having players who want to play, but it doesn't make since to sub, whey they can only spend at most 16 hours a month with the game misses out.

They would still have to buy the game, and if they wanted to play more they could always sub at that point, etc. These are just the random thoughts of one person though, I'm sure there are all kinds of issues with gil sellers, etc. with this plan.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

The sub model is infinitely better and FFXIV has prospered under this model.

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I think some pessimists would change that to say "Square Enix has prospered"...

If the cash shop continues to expand, I'll welcome F2p with open arms. No point in paying for a sub if you have to cash shop to get cool things and that's a road we're starting to travel now.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Your original post said we were going toward a "cash shop heavy model," which implies that it's moving beyond cosmetic items into other categories. An example of a cash shop heavy model would be a game that offers exp boost scrolls, extra character slots, costumes with stats, enhancement protection items, and access to premium areas along with the cosmetic items like mounts and dyes. Everything we have in the cash shop is staying in one category - cosmetic.

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Cash shop start off as innocent and then they test the waters and add more things to it. In a few years time I'd put gil on other services like char slots being added.

Sadly today's player is now hard-wired to be willing to pay extra for content. Just look at that cash grab that is Destiny.

I also forgot when originality typing but yes not only do you have to pay for extra retainers but you have to subscribe to them them!

We were informed that due to technical hurdles we can;t get extra inventory space and that we would get extra retainers. OK, fair enough but then when the patch notes landed we found out we had to pay extra for them - each month.

I'm all for companies making money but what SE have done to monetise the game outside of the sub is frankly disgusting. They have the morals of a f2p game, in fact f2p are more honest about it.

I wouldn't mind if they just increased the sub a little if it's not viable in this day and age.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

The sub model is infinitely better and FFXIV has prospered under this model.

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Subscription and cash shop model with new stuff new coming out cash shop exclusive. See above.

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Originally Posted by Adire

If the cash shop continues to expand, I'll welcome F2p with open arms. No point in paying for a sub if you have to cash shop to get cool things and that's a road we're starting to travel now.

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All of those are subjective though.
I think all those mounts are sort of ugly, and the only Scion outfit I'd want is well.... not the point.

On the other hand no one can say faster leveling and other F2P cash shop items are "subjective". It's more "if you don't get this you literally will be playing sub par".

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Cash shop start off as innocent and then they test the waters and add more things to it. In a few years time I'd put gil on other services like char slots being added.

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This is like a textbook example of a slippery slope fallacy. There's no proof to show that SE intends to ever add anything but 100% cosmetic content to the cash shop, and in fact they've said multiple times that they're going to be keeping it that way.

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We were informed that due to technical hurdles we can;t get extra inventory space and that we would get extra retainers. OK, fair enough but then when the patch notes landed we found out we had to pay extra for them - each month.

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The thing is, giving 1 or 2 extra retainers to every single character on every single server would surely add up to more space than only adding for those that are willing to pay for the service. Think about how many people have alts - I doubt that very many people subscribe to extra retainers for each alt (if they subscribe to retainers at all, since you can use alts and the FC chest to list and/or store extra items for you). Don't get me wrong, I'd like more retainers too. It would give me even more market presence than I already have. The only problem I'd have is keeping a supply of venture coins on hand. :3

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I'm all for companies making money but what SE have done to monetise the game outside of the sub is frankly disgusting. They have the morals of a f2p game, in fact f2p are more honest about it.

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I don't see how glamour items and mounts are "disgusting" but that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. To me, the only types of things that would make the cash shop intolerable would be if they affected actual game stats, exp gain, or access to areas.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

The thing is, giving 1 or 2 extra retainers to every single character on every single server would surely add up to more space than only adding for those that are willing to pay for the service. Think about how many people have alts - I doubt that very many people subscribe to extra retainers for each alt (if they subscribe to retainers at all, since you can use alts and the FC chest to list and/or store extra items for you). Don't get me wrong, I'd like more retainers too. It would give me even more market presence than I already have. The only problem I'd have is keeping a supply of venture coins on hand. :3

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I get what you're trying to say but i don't think you realize how easy it is to apply that logic to to other services.

Lets try it.

"The thing is, adding a ward or housing plot to accommodate every single character on every single server would surely add up to more space than only adding for those that are willing to pay for the service."

See the problem there?

I don't disagree that the slippery slope fallacy is real with a lot of the arguments that crop up, but lets not pretend that some of those reasons aren't dangerously close to being applicable to other services even if they aren't likely to do so.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

All of those are subjective though.
I think all those mounts are sort of ugly, and the only Scion outfit I'd want is well.... not the point.

On the other hand no one can say faster leveling and other F2P cash shop items are "subjective". It's more "if you don't get this you literally will be playing sub par".

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Subjective or not, that's beside the point. I don't particularly like any of the vanity currently in the cash shop myself, actually. But they're bound to add something exclusive that I do want eventually.

If my experience in other MMOs says anything, it's that once it's clear the cash shop is highly profitable and once it's clear that the people who spend, spend enough to offset the cost of losing players who don't spend and then some, the cash shop will become the go to place for anything unique or cool.

You can look to SWTOR for a very clear example of that. At this point, almost all of the new fashions are in the cash shop in that, and the ones not in it were obviously an afterthought.

Besides, I know I'd feel sub par if someone ran by me on something I really wanted from the cash shop but didn't want to buy because of the principle of it. It really is pointless using the expired argument of "Vanity cash shop is fine, pay to win/level/etc" is not. To some people, vanity is as important as stats if not more so. And it being expanded in the cash shop will make said players essentially be sub par to those who choose to spend and encourage the expansion of it because vanity is a major attraction to the game for them.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

This is like a textbook example of a slippery slope fallacy. There's no proof to show that SE intends to ever add anything but 100% cosmetic content to the cash shop, and in fact they've said multiple times that they're going to be keeping it that way.

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Fallacy is a very popular go to word unfortunately.

This isn't an example of a slippery slope fallacy, it's an example of trending. One that many of us see as a negative trend. One that is backed by history with an entire industry and current events in the same industry. One that in this situation particularly is backed by already present game systems such as retainer purchasing that serve as evidence (retainers are not vanity). Trends do develop quite often when humans are involved in something, and I think MMO running companies pushing players to the limits with microtransactions is quite evidenced enough to be considered more than a "slippery slope fallacy". It's not like this would be a fluke.

I can name a plethora of MMOs that have expanded their cash shops greatly since launch and a plethora of real life events that started small with people just shrugging and ignoring it, then later becoming a major occurrence. There is plenty of evidence of this trend happening in MMOs and already some in FFXIV in particular.

Microtransactions are rampant these days when they weren't in the past and people successfully predicted it happening. Was that a slippery slope fallacy? No, it was an educated prediction that was based off knowledge of business-customer relationship dynamics and now it's an accepted fact. The gaming industry tested the waters, people bought in slowly and began to accept it as the standard, and now it's common practice throughout the gaming industry.

If SE successfully pushes the community to its tolerance limits with vanity in the cash shop, we can look at WoW as an example of what would likely happen next.

If SE was given the choice to either make profit with pay to win, or hold to their word and do the right thing, would you trust them to do the latter?

Given the track record with SE's current cash shop slowly introducing new forms of cash-shop exclusive vanity and retainers, I know I wouldn't. It's a high profit endeavor with a small cost, highly enticing for a company willing to overlook morals and content-oriented additions to a game.

Just be aware, by the time you draw your personal line, it may be too late to go back. Encroaching cash shops are a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud for everyone's sake (or at least for people who can't afford to/don't want to be a whale). I say this from experience with many other MMOs, and while SE is not one of those companies obviously, some of the choices they've made (such as stagnating progress increase per patch, STILL citing old 1.0 era problems despite introducing the cash shop and making a steady profit, etc) it doesn't give me much faith. At least the MMOs I played previously also only introduced cash shops after they went F2P/B2P or at launch when they were F2P to begin with.

Introduction of a cash shop in a subscription game while still maintaining the status quo of excuses as to why we can't have things we should have already had at launch and even giving us less content per patch at times is not a good way to build trust for what they might do in the future.

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Originally Posted by PawsTheKitti123

Like, they say theyd quit if it was.

Why? You like spending loads of cash and wasting money every month/two months/three? I hate it. Its a waste but I do it because I like the game.

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>Stares at Pay2Win models
>Stares at many free game communities

Ya let's not, okay?