How would you feel if they scrapped the current "classes"?

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03-13-2011, 07:44 AM
Kimahri

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Sorry I used Utsusami as an example, the point I was trying to make is in FFXI there were restrictions that stopped you from taking the best abilities from each class and creating a super class. If FFXI was like this then everyone would level NIN for shadow's, everyone would level SAM for Hasso, Meditate, Third Eye, Siegan, everyone would level WAR for Berserk, War Cry, Aggressor, everyone would level RDM for Convert, Refresh and Haste and so on, it would be completely out of control.

That is what I fear is happening with the current system, already you have THM's that can solo the NM's which are designed for 15 people, how is that balance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDk94b3oZbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KazOD98mqr4

I have levelled MRD to 50 and started levelling all the other classes I have everything above R24 but I am mainly focusing on ARC now and even I can see how over powered I am becoming adding abilities like, ferocity, faint,invigorate, maim, still precision, skull sunder and so on, on top of my Archers already OP abilties. I can kill things way above what I should be doing and I have that many attack buff's and weapon skill's that most of the time I can't even use them all because everything is dead so quick.

They system need's to be seriously looked at because it is broken as hell at the minute.

Exactly! Those video's are proof enough that this system is flawed. If anyone knows the guy Avesta from FFXI, you'll know he did most things solo that other people couldn't, because he had a great strategy to use only his RDM skills. Now......It just seems rather stupid that what took someone a long time to perfect is now being perfected as soon as a couple months?
03-13-2011, 07:50 AM
Kimahri

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortikhan

I can't say I am thrilled with the new system but also not thrilled with the FFXI version either. Maybe an implementation of both systems is in order. Bear with me here this might be a bit lengthy.

Assuming this:

Class = Skill set
Job = Role

Keep the Classes as they are including the current max level. Upon achievement of certain class levels you can unlock an "advanced" class. These advance classes would be the more traditional named jobs. The hook to this would be that these advanced jobs would require multiple classes to unlock.

Example:

Red Mage would be an advanced job. To unlock the quest necessary to become a Red Mage you might have to achieve Conjurer 30 and Thaumaturge 30 and complete the individual class quests associated with them. You might even want to throw in Gladiator 20 as a requirement as well.

In short you would need to train your "Classes" (skill sets) before you could perform your main "Job" (role).

I have heard this from other threads, but I feel that what you're trying to do is jump the gun and install new advanced classes too soon. There are far too many problems with the original seven classes we have now. I do not see how this relates to anything regarding a unique quality of the classes.

It's basically like saying, "Here. Level this class to this level, and we'll give you another class with everything and then some!" It's some really good thinking, man. I'm being honest. However I just don't feel like this is the solution we should stride for.
03-13-2011, 07:53 AM
gifthorse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimahri

I have heard this from other threads, but I feel that what you're trying to do is jump the gun and install new advanced classes too soon. There are far too many problems with the original seven classes we have now. I do not see how this relates to anything regarding a unique quality of the classes.

It's basically like saying, "Here. Level this class to this level, and we'll give you another class with everything and then some!" It's some really good thinking, man. I'm being honest. However I just don't feel like this is the solution we should stride for.

He's not trying to install new advanced classes. He is trying to develop jobs/roles with defined directions within the skill sets available.
03-13-2011, 08:13 AM
AlexiaKidd

Quote:

Originally Posted by gifthorse

He's not trying to install new advanced classes. He is trying to develop jobs/roles with defined directions within the skill sets available.

But even still the underlying problem is the Armoury system itself, it allows way to much freedom and is just going to create an army of completely over powered players and if you don't have every job levelled up to create these OP classes then you fall behind. The need restrictions and FFXI did that perfectly with the sub job system only allowing you to have one full class and half of another. Being able to pick and choose skills from any class will always create unbalance.
03-13-2011, 08:14 AM
Mortikhan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimahri

I have heard this from other threads, but I feel that what you're trying to do is jump the gun and install new advanced classes too soon. There are far too many problems with the original seven classes we have now. I do not see how this relates to anything regarding a unique quality of the classes.

It's basically like saying, "Here. Level this class to this level, and we'll give you another class with everything and then some!" It's some really good thinking, man. I'm being honest. However I just don't feel like this is the solution we should stride for.

As I had said further in my post. The restrictions would come into play with the jobs. You would ONLY be able to select abilities from the classes needed to unlock the job. Using the example in my previous post: Red Mage for example would not be allowed to choose from Marauder or Archer skills to augment their skill set. The generic classes would have a more broad skill set but limited by their level. The jobs would be more powerful but have a specific role and the skills gained by their leveling would fit that role and only be accessible to that job. I also stated further on in my post that content introduced for the the jobs would present a marked difference in difficulty. This would offset the current "omgzors I am a godling" feeling of the armoury system at present. The current system allows you to tinker with all of the skills you have to produce a skill set you would like to have and then when you get the jobs you will have to sacrifice some of those skills based on what you can or cannot use with that job. You would have to make a choice on what role you really want to serve and have the more difficult content that will require those "amplified" abilities you will gain. With that choice however you would also be catering to weaknesses that you would require other people to compensate for.
03-13-2011, 08:29 AM
Argh

scrap them all. the game sucks and it needs a complete overhaul, AKA; ffxi-2.
03-13-2011, 08:32 AM
Kimahri

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mortikhan

As I had said further in my post. The restrictions would come into play with the jobs. You would ONLY be able to select abilities from the classes needed to unlock the job. Using the example in my previous post: Red Mage for example would not be allowed to choose from Marauder or Archer skills to augment their skill set. The generic classes would have a more broad skill set but limited by their level. The jobs would be more powerful but have a specific role and the skills gained by their leveling would fit that role and only be accessible to that job. I also stated further on in my post that content introduced for the the jobs would present a marked difference in difficulty. This would offset the current "omgzors I am a godling" feeling of the armoury system at present. The current system allows you to tinker with all of the skills you have to produce a skill set you would like to have and then when you get the jobs you will have to sacrifice some of those skills based on what you can or cannot use with that job. You would have to make a choice on what role you really want to serve and have the more difficult content that will require those "amplified" abilities you will gain. With that choice however you would also be catering to weaknesses that you would require other people to compensate for.

I completely understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is we need to worry about advanced classes further down the line. I'm concerned with the original seven. I don't want a RoZ expansion already when we haven't fixed the original. Being able to unlock a RDM simply by leveling two jobs will not help the two jobs it's coming from. Why can't I just use Marauder and be unique? Why does it have to be a required tool in order for me to obtain say Berserker?

There is only one way I think you'll be able to do something along the lines of what you're coming from. A progression of the basic class to an "advanced" class could be achieved by slowly turning a job such as Gladiator, into a more defined role such as Paladin or Dark Knight. Here's how.

At some point down the line, let's say Rank 25 since it's in the half-way mark, you will be able to access a quest with your Rank 25 Gladiator that allows you to start training you Gladiator into a more defined role.(Again either Paladin or Dark Knight) This would go a long way into keeping the original seven classes unique since they will turn into more defined roles as either DD, Tank, Healer, Magic DD, Buffer, etc.

We would also need to keep the ability to cross abilities from only a certain other jobs, like you said. For one, I don't think we should swap DoW with DoM abilities. (Only exception would be the Paladin & Dark Knight options since they also require magic in certain ways.) This would be a far better ploy to go on than just leveling Gladiator, Thaumaturge, and whichever else you said to 30 and then leaving them high and dry. That would just make the original seven pointless to level since there's no incentive there to level them other than the fact that you'll have the same stuff on just another, more "advanced" class as you would say.
03-13-2011, 08:32 AM
AlexiaKidd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argh

scrap them all. the game sucks and it needs a complete overhaul, AKA; ffxi-2.

lol as much as I would like that I don't think many would ; ; The thing is FFXI did a lot of things right and there is no harm in SE using what was good about FFXI and building upon it to keep it fresh. With FFXIV I feel like they purposely did the opposite to make the game unique and it has failed.
03-13-2011, 10:04 AM
Mortikhan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimahri

I completely understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is we need to worry about advanced classes further down the line. I'm concerned with the original seven. I don't want a RoZ expansion already when we haven't fixed the original. Being able to unlock a RDM simply by leveling two jobs will not help the two jobs it's coming from. Why can't I just use Marauder and be unique? Why does it have to be a required tool in order for me to obtain say Berserker?

There is only one way I think you'll be able to do something along the lines of what you're coming from. A progression of the basic class to an "advanced" class could be achieved by slowly turning a job such as Gladiator, into a more defined role such as Paladin or Dark Knight. Here's how.

At some point down the line, let's say Rank 25 since it's in the half-way mark, you will be able to access a quest with your Rank 25 Gladiator that allows you to start training you Gladiator into a more defined role.(Again either Paladin or Dark Knight) This would go a long way into keeping the original seven classes unique since they will turn into more defined roles as either DD, Tank, Healer, Magic DD, Buffer, etc.

We would also need to keep the ability to cross abilities from only a certain other jobs, like you said. For one, I don't think we should swap DoW with DoM abilities. (Only exception would be the Paladin & Dark Knight options since they also require magic in certain ways.) This would be a far better ploy to go on than just leveling Gladiator, Thaumaturge, and whichever else you said to 30 and then leaving them high and dry. That would just make the original seven pointless to level since there's no incentive there to level them other than the fact that you'll have the same stuff on just another, more "advanced" class as you would say.

I think we are both looking at the same destination but approaching it from separate routes. Either way works. Basically creating a hybrid of two or more classes to create a more refined and specific job that executes the intended role more efficiently. You are saying to expand on the current system but make the new creation more specific in nature by unlocking other aspects of the main classes. I am seeing the current classes as "starter" classes to acquire the skills necessary to achieve the intended role by meeting the minimum requirements to serve that role.

As far as abandoning the initial classes I am not saying that at all. I am saying that you must level the initial classes to the minimum levels before being able to explore the job you want to explore. You would still be able to continue with the original classes and continue to add to that job skill pool by leveling the classes involved in making up that job. Keeping with that objective in mind, you would not be able to max out the job until you maxed out all of its comprising classes. Kind of a "tools of your profession" situation.

Your way works as well with the "evolution" method of advancing into a more specified field. You advance the first class to its prerequisite level and then choose an aspect of that class to define the role of that class while still maintaining the base of the class.
03-13-2011, 10:18 AM
Anathiel

Okay I've put this in two other threads, but again I've added to any dev1033 thread, read through and see if it might appease you.
If advanced jobs were introduced as specializations within current jobs, I don't think they would do it in a talent tree system. Knowing SE and how they did things in FF:XI and for that matter, any of their main stream titles, they don't copy other games that are popular at the time. They make their own mold and they go with it.
Specialization within a current job the way that the Yoshi-P words not just in his current interviews, but the interviews he's done since he's taken over "command" of the dev team...is really that of Final Fantasy Tactics venue. Not to mention the majority of the team that worked on FF:XI and is currently working on FF:XIV worked in Final Fantasy Tactics. Obviously they're going to have very strong influences from those games.
Now, don't get me wrong...in my mind, the only way to appease everyone is to make a FF:T-esque way of UNLOCKING advance jobs, once they are unlocked the way to level these jobs up is to use a talent tree system. Having a baseline of abilities for all jobs, and then having the advance jobs have the talent tree's. It makes the advance jobs more powerful than baseline jobs, which was the case in any final fantasy (sorry for all those gladiator, marauder lovers out there, just the way it's always been) and allows you to customize your advance job the way you want it to be.
For instance, I get gladiator to rank 10, marauder to rank 10, and thaumaturge to rank 10 (I apologize for spelling) and now I can unlock Dark Knight (my favored class)...now that I've unlocked Dark Knight, when I level it up I get "talent points" which can be put into any of the tree's which I consider. For this particular conversation we will say Dark Knight has 3 tree's: Enfeebling, Tanking, Damage Dealing. Remember this is just for example...I always thought DRK could've been a tank if played properly lol ^^; Now, I unlock dark knight, in order to prevent over powering the advance jobs it would have to start at a higher level as to prevent getting too many talent tree points...actually talent tree points could just start with a higher level. Let's say rank 20, I don't have a diagram of how the tree's would play out, I'm just asking you to pretend along with me. Now, I want to cross spec so I'm playing a final fantasy XI style dark knight, half enfeebling and half damage dealing...you see where I'm going now? I hope so. But look, I hate the cookie cutter of paladins have to be tanks, or gladiators...so now I can respec my talent tree points to be a tank/enfeebler, changing my play style but still giving the game that overall sense of diversity that everyone is craving right now.

Now that I'm thinking of it, it shouldn't be a problem that any job could get the talent points and be able to "spec" in any way of playing. Um...Gladiator could have a talent tree spec open up at rank 20, the three specs being Spike Damage (two handed swords), Tanking (Sword and Shield), or DPS (Sword and shield with offense passive/active abilities).
Now most of the base classes we have now would have to be nerfed, and the talent tree's would be able to buff them back up again but at the cost of "I have a gladiator that can use black magic, white magic, pugilist, and archer abilities" which in my opinion should go anyways. Of course I think that the armory system should be gotten rid of, I don't like, never really did. If it's too much to get rid of, that's fine...I'm sure they could think of something, it's not my job to and I'm going to trust them (the dev team) on that one.

If I happen to find a diagram, or illustration that could better make my opinion known, then I will paste it in a new reply. If I just edit my current post it'll be lost in 5 minutes ^^;;;

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