AST Sect Theory

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

It's only a ridiculous assumption if you don't clarify. For all I know, you might be a jerk and insta-kick people. It's not all that ridiculous of an assumption when I have no working knowledge of who you are.

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It was overall just a stupid thing to say. The simple fact that you think anyone would accept a vote kick as soon as an instance starts, or that anyone who plays this game is stupid enough to not give someone time to switch from an incorrect stance, is just mind baffling.

Like, you can't even kick someone in an instance until the instance has been going for 5 minutes, and that's plenty of time to switch. I thought that was common knowledge but I guess not XD.

Anyway, maybe think things through a bit more before you post next time. Sorry~

Running Noct with a SCH remains fairly pointless. It still amounts to giving up access to Diurnal regens for a 5% potency boost.

Good communication could help reduce wasted shields, but there is little point to such an exercise when the AST can simply choose to bring Regen effects and allow the SCH to handle necessary mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Ballooooon

I don't think stacking shields is that much of a problem as long as you pay attention to the other healer's cast bar or what shield buffs a tank has. In Elysium's world first a3 savage clear adloquium was used less than once per minute (12 times in a 13 minute fight). It seems reasonable that an astrologian who is paying attention could avoid stacking on any of those 12 times.

I would still definitely use diurnal but that's because diurnal is still so strong.

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That's fine. There's plenty of data showing an AST in Diurnal with a SCH is a good combo. And you're right, stacking shields wouldn't be much of a problem until you start trying to anticipate who/when the SCH will shield. A macro could help with this, but it'd be pretty unnecessary -- relegated to when partnered with an AST who wanted to run Noct. Teamspeak and other tools would definitely help, as it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to say "Succor" or "shields" etc.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

It was overall just a stupid thing to say. The simple fact that you think anyone would accept a vote kick as soon as an instance starts, or that anyone who plays this game is stupid enough to not give someone time to switch from an incorrect stance, is just mind baffling.

Like, you can't even kick someone in an instance until the instance has been going for 5 minutes, and that's plenty of time to switch. I thought that was common knowledge but I guess not XD.

Anyway, maybe think things through a bit more before you post next time. Sorry~

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I don't use vote kick, so I didn't know that. Most of the times when vote kick prompts in my groups, it's usually been well after the first boss of a dungeon/tower run. Also, it has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with attitude. Some people are just unwilling to put up with the tiniest things. Imagine a group of buddies who queue up for trials, they've got a SCH and the AST their paired with either makes the mistake of going Noct or consciously chose Noct. Your statement was you'd kick them. Not talk them out of it, you'd flat out kick them. You presented an extreme reaction with no other details. You just need a majority rule to kick someone, and you don't get a whole lot of options to explain why you're kicking someone. Choose AFK and anyone who's not paying attention to what the healers are doing might think, "What? AFK? Can't have that."

XIV might have a pretty healthy community compared to some other MMOs, but that doesn't mean jerk players don't exist (or that they travel alone, as like attracts like). So, not assuming you're a nice, or patient, person your statement alone reads as a insta-kick.

Now that I do know about the 5min window, I suppose insta-kick will refer to the first moment the vote kick function can be used. 5min is plenty of time to correct any errors you're making, or talk with your party, and for them to decide if they want you out or not.

Also, no reason to use sorry. There's nothing to be sorry about. I'm certainly not going to feel bad about not having the knowledge I do now. But I'm going to keep thinking things through with what information I have, and post accordingly. Not like I can't be corrected. Heaven forbid I recognize I can be wrong :O

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Running Noct with a SCH remains fairly pointless. It still amounts to giving up access to Diurnal regens for a 5% potency boost.

Good communication could help reduce wasted shields, but there is little point to such an exercise when the AST can simply choose to bring Regen effects and allow the SCH to handle necessary mitigation.

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Doesn't stop me from being interested in how the two classes would interact. Like, would the AST still pop Synastry when massive healing needs to happen on one person, or would they pop it for the healing boost so that they could bring everyone else back up quicker, before going back to healing single targets? Does their Synastry+Essential Dignity combo become a better choice than Lustrate for a tank (maybe? Don't remember if they confirmed healing Synastry target was a bug or not, because a tank sitting at 1% from HG/Hlmg/WU might want the 1250 potency + 40%)? Two 400 potencies + 300 potency, and then the entire SCH kit plus whatever the AST brings... It at the very least sounds interesting.

The point would be letting AST players try to be outside the box and maybe find other situations they might not come across unless they found themselves in it. SCH had to learn b/c there was no choice in the matter. AST can at least look at what happened with SCH and work from there.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

Doesn't stop me from being interested in how the two classes would interact. Like, would the AST still pop Synastry when massive healing needs to happen on one person, or would they pop it for the healing boost so that they could bring everyone else back up quicker, before going back to healing single targets? Does their Synastry+Essential Dignity combo become a better choice than Lustrate for a tank (maybe? Don't remember if they confirmed healing Synastry target was a bug or not, because a tank sitting at 1% from HG/Hlmg/WU might want the 1250 potency + 40%)? Two 400 potencies + 300 potency, and then the entire SCH kit plus whatever the AST brings... It at the very least sounds interesting.

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Is there a "Synastry+Essential Dignity combo"?
Both in Combination are still strong, but I strongly believe ED is not increased by Synastry and the bonding-effect does only account for spells, not abilities like ED.

Also and most imporant, the points you made are not exclusive to NoctAst.

Theorycrafting is great and all, but I have no idea what Apeiron still expects to find in comparing Noct AST+SCH to other combinations. It feels like proving that 2+2 does not equal 5; jumping through hoops in order to arrive at an already-known answer.

And yes, any question of Synastry, ED, etc. relate also to Diurnal. The only things that are exclusive to Noct are the shield effects and the +5% potency on healing spells.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Is there a "Synastry+Essential Dignity combo"?
Both in Combination are still strong, but I strongly believe ED is not increased by Synastry and the bonding-effect does only account for spells, not abilities like ED.

Also and most imporant, the points you made are not exclusive to NoctAst.

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Is there? Well, if there's a lot of incoming damage there might be. But you're right about Syn not affecting Dig, as Dig is an ability (not a spell) the secondary benefit of Synastry doesn't happen. I double checked the tool-tip and even went through verifying IG just to be sure (xivdb just says it's was a skill, not whether it's a spell or an ability). Also, while looking into this, it appears that Dig likewise does not get the benefit of +5% from Noct. Which is disappointing, but also good to know.

And no, while not exclusive, the DiAst will probably prioritize their regens when Synastry is up to get stronger ticks. I can see A. Helios followed up by Benefic and then A. Benefic for tanks. The NoctAst, on the other hand, should prioritize the normal Helios before going on to Benefic and Benefic II which would get a party up faster, and cheaper. This is, of course, as one other person in this thread pointed out, front-loading your heals.

Taking a DiAst and a NoctAst in the same scenario, paired with a SCH, it's easy to assume the DiAst will stick to their guns and roll their regens while the SCH shields. They'll then move on to handle whichever mechanics they need to, as appropriate. As stated numerous times, and not once refuted by me, this is good. There's a synergy there, and that's obvious. The NoctAst, meanwhile, doesn't prioritize their shields, and instead prioritizes Benefic or Benefic II.

Continuing to run with this scenario, we can assume that because the AST in both cases used an AoE heal, the SCH might also have to use their own AoE. They can either choose to use Succor (150potx2), Eos's Whispering Dawn (100pot over 21sec, 7 ticks for 700pot total per target) or if necessary both. For funzies, we'll go with both.

In the case of the DiAst that becomes a beginning potency of 350, with a shield of 150, and regen of 140 every tick for 21sec (total 980) and then another 40 for 6sec (or 80 total) before regen have to be reapplied.

In the case of the NoctAst that's a potency of 525, with a shield of 150, and regen of 100 every tick for 21 sec (total 700).

It takes another 3sec before regens catches up, and then another 3sec before surpassing. After that initial 6 seconds, however, Diurnal undoubtedly beats out Nocturnal in HPS for obvious reasons. A NoctAst cannot compete in a HPS game, as after the first tick (870 start + 180/tick for 18sec vs. 1375 flat) they start losing.

If your goal is high HPS, congratulations. You have the highest HPS in a contest that was a no brainer.

Back tracking a bit, so we have a context for all the above math.... We already know how well the AST(di)+SCH interact; that is, very well. They compliment each other almost as well as WHM+SCH, because that's what its like. Opposite of it, we have the AST(no)+SCH which we don't know how good/bad this combination is. We only know it's not optimally preferred, and no one wants to try it out. People are all too ready to dismiss the combo, mainly because the expect another round of SCH+SCH, when it's not exactly that. It'll be similar (like it is in the case with Diurnal+SCH) in that one person will be shielding (SCH) and the other person will..., well, not be shielding.

Unlike the SCH+SCH combo, the AST isn't shoe-horned into summoning Selene (who has a 1sec silence, and a 30sec buff to Spellspeed or Skillspeed) and not using their Adlo or Succor (or other similar abilities which might not stack). Instead, they've got: comparable healing; buffs for mitigation, recast timers, damage, attack speed, mp regen, or tp regen; a quicker/cheaper way to handle people who've just been rez'd (lightspeed + stoneskin + protect all in 5sec and party is good to go); an extension for their buffs; an extension on buffs in general; damage mitigation+regen to go with their co-healers damage mitigation/regen.

Maths:
Di Benefic 480
No Benefic 500

Di Helios 360
No Helios 375

Di A. Benefic 190 + 840 (over 18sec, 6 ticks)
No A. Benefic 250 + 325 (lasting 30sec, expect 2-3sec on a tank)

Di A. Helios 200 + 400 (over 30sec, 10 ticks) per target
No A. Helios 150 + 150 (lasting 30sec, mileage may vary) per target

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Theorycrafting is great and all, but I have no idea what Apeiron still expects to find in comparing Noct AST+SCH to other combinations. It feels like proving that 2+2 does not equal 5; jumping through hoops in order to arrive at an already-known answer.

And yes, any question of Synastry, ED, etc. relate also to Diurnal. The only things that are exclusive to Noct are the shield effects and the +5% potency on healing spells.

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Feels like it, I know, but it's not. Less 2+2=/=5 and more a+c=/=a.

Honestly, until I can make a run with the NoctAst+SCH combo, I don't expect to find much in comparing the other combinations aside from what's already been found. What I do expect is to engage others in healthy conversation (or try to) where I explain myself, and those that want to continue the conversation can.

The original hypothesis was made prior to the changes to AST, and worked under the assumption that AST might not be given buffs to make them comparable to the other two healers. I made a guess that the intent behind the AST design was to mimic the other two healers to capitalize on the other healer's strengths, without stepping on their toes but still allowing the players to decide how and when to play in each sect. Prior to 3.07 trying to be a WHM in Diurnal was a struggle, and SCH in Nocturnal laughable, so I made an assumption and asked the community to help me figure out if it was viable/possible. Instead, what I got was a lot of people not willing to take a little time out of their gameplay to at the very least try something different.

I asked, very simply, for someone (anyone, really) to try, and come back with what I expected was a "sorry, man, it just doesn't work and here's under what circumstance and why".

Instead we've spent the last 5 weeks talking about why no one wants to try. When it would have taken one run-through of any two of the Alexander floors (one where the healing wasn't so intense, and another where it was) and this whole thread could be put to rest. Not only would that give us, the players, feedback about where the NoctAst is lacking when paired with SCH, but an easy reference for new players who might have the same question and not be satisfied with the "because diurnal is like whm and therefore better."

That's not saying I haven't seen some very good explanations as to why it might not work well, because I have and that's fine. I'm happy to see those types of responses as they explain what types of difficulties the pairing will likely run into, but that's all it does. It explains why it might, and doesn't show why it does.

Nocturnal + SCH certainly works better in some small ways than SCH + SCH, but given that you effectively lock yourself out of two abilities (or lock the SCH out of his equivalents) since they don't stack with one another, why *wouldn't* you go Diurnal, as it gives you a more well-rounded healing kit for the encounter? Yes, Nocturnal has 5% greater potency, but Diurnal grants more than that in HoT ticks, and also grants 5% casting speed (useful for both healing and DPS--which isn't the case for Nocturnal's boost).

I know you want people to test it, but there's not really a compelling reason *to* test it. It's a less versatile healing composition just by its very nature.

I don't think you'll be satisfied until you try it yourself.

The issue here is that you have been asking a group of players who have been there/done that with SCH and WHM since 2.x to model essentially the same pairings with AST Sects.

With AST you are getting the same core abilities regardless of Sect, so the only really relevant question is "regen or shields?" The sect bonuses aren't nearly impactful enough to be a factor.

Anyway, I recommend that you try this yourself so that you can make whatever observations you wanted to make.