[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

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Originally Posted by Reika

Cancels as in Resets?

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cancels as delete, remove, destroy. as they don't exist. It's an hypothetical question, don't take too seriously (if I could fly...), but an answer is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

The problem with this system isn't it's lack of classes. Remember that XI started with only six jobs....This is starting with seven. The problem is the access to cross mostly any ability to any class disregarding rank. You unlock Stygian Spikes off Thaumaturge at level 16 and can only access it at Thaumaturge's level 16, but you can then slap it on a level 1 Conjurer? That's the problem. It will only provide motivation to leveling a class to only support another in a sense of developing a "Ultimate" class.

Abilities need to be accessed at optimal levels for all classes, and a lot need to be class specific to give an influence to it's character of being that said class. Then also some of those abilities that are crossed over can not have the same effect on other classes. If you want a couple examples from FFXI, I'd be glad to.

I. Utsusemi: Ni used as any other job other than Ninja resulted in 3 shadows relative to a Ninja who would assume 4 shadows.

II. Sneak Attack would add a critical strike to your weaponskill, but the DEX modifier was less potent than a Thief's.

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Surprisingly, I actually agree with a lot of this. Allowing abilities to only be used from other classes at the ability's optimal rank makes perfect sense and is a completely reasonable restriction. Abilities having modified effects on other classes is also reasonable. This actually already happens on Marauder by extension of the fact that Steadfast, and it's effect on abilities, is only accessible while on Marauder.

This goes in line with the equipment issue.

"should equipment be used at a rank requirement, or keep optimal rank at which it is most effective?"

Just because you can use stygian spikes on a r1 conjorer, doesnt mean it gives you as much MP back per hit as it would if your conjurer were r16 and you were using Transcendence along with it.

a spell Sacrifice II has reduced healing if used before R20, and further reduced healing if used without Transcendence. And even transcendence has reduced effect if used before R50, meaning None of your cross-class skiills will ever be as affective as if they were used on the primary class until you reach rank 50 on chosen class. And then spells still wont have as much effectiveness because non-caster weapons have way less Mag Potency and accuracy.

Ohhh, I see. The current class system is not restrictive enough to be like ffxi and so should be changed?

I rather like the current system, being able to take skills from all around and try them in one class is a great system, and is, overall, implemented well, especially one you start working with affinity (a system that could be better explained.) If anything, the only problem with the current system is that with many of the war disciplines, there ends up being a large number of skills that are rather redundant, with only slight differences. This seems a consequence of trying to please those who would focus on one class as well as those who would work more broadly.

In the end, I think ffxiv's current job system is good, and energy should be spent figuring out how to elegantly expand on it.

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Originally Posted by sivant

Ohhh, I see. The current class system is not restrictive enough to be like ffxi and so should be changed?

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YES.

It doesn't have to be like FFXI's, it just has to be less broken.

"it is not like other MMO's, So it is broken"

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Originally Posted by Reika

"it is not like other MMO's, So it is broken"

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"I'm always wrong and my arguments are childish. Did I mention that I don't like FFXI? Let me remind you once more."

It is a broken system. It doesn't have to be like other MMO's, but it has to be changed. Unique does not automatically equal good.

My opinion is to limit the cross class system by making it more like the sub job system. If you are a r40 THM you can only use r20 Conj spells. Something like this. Plus all DoW spells are cross class between CONJ and THM, lame.

Nothing is perfect. Once it is changed, it will still be imperfect. when it is changed again, it will still be imperfect. And each time there will be a new crowd, and often some from the last, complaining about it.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

"I'm always wrong and my arguments are childish. Did I mention that I don't like FFXI? Let me remind you once more."

It is a broken system. It doesn't have to be like other MMO's, but it has to be changed. Unique does not automatically equal good.

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I didnt quote you because I wasnt talking to you. Duh?