Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Yup. Either my video, or this text guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...xkL2IClCQ/edit

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Well, the OP hasn't been updated in forever, because the poster has disappeared. The video you link is by Dervy (which is a fairly unique username, so I'm assuming no shenanigans), who's been volunteered to post a new OP when the expansion launches. Knowing nothing else about DRG, I'd say go with the video. :p

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Yeah, I noticed in the comments he mentioned he was going to do a thread. I wasn't really familiar with Dervy before now.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Yup. Either my video, or this text guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...xkL2IClCQ/edit

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Okay, thanks! ^_^ I'll read up on this tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I believe the minimum you need is 360-370 with such low ping. I think its Auirily who can do it with 367ss.

Another thing to consider is that if you're able to get 9GDCs, the one point in the rotation where its acceptable to delay BFB by a GDC, which are bolded in red. People with lower ping will encounter this, but players like myself who have around 100ms+ will never need to delay it that much.

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365 sksp at 53ms~ lets me get 9 skills, yeah

at this level of skillspeed though (365-390) you'll run into the problem of having your GCD be forced to move up 1 skill because your BFB cd won't keep up with it. here's what happens when im at around 378

1st bfb
dis>late bfb>chaos

2nd bfb
vorpal>bfb almost up, but will definitely clip into gcd (it comes up at about 80% into gcd for me), so you'd do instead
vorpal>ft>late bfb>phleb

no problem right? potency increase is still there, but the issue is in the next bfb because you late casted before a phleb

3rd bfb (mostly off memory, i haven't parsed in a while)
vorpal>ft>same situation as before; bfb will come up about 80% into gcd before phleb; not worth waiting for at higher skillspeed levels, so it becomes..
vorpal>ft>phleb>true/impulse drive, i forgot which happens at this point in the rotation

at a bare minimum skillspeed (365) it's heavily debatable that clipping gcd slightly may be worth it; because at some point, if you always prioritize gcd over clipping slightly to get bfb on earlier skills, you'll have an unbuffed chaos thrust around the 4th or 5th bfb. but if you do delay gcd slightly for bfb timings, you're clipping gcd obviously.


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anyway! really good stuff with the video/spreadsheet on 9 skill bfb. i think something to consider is if you're on farm content with selene; if your scholar uses fey light first, it lines up with like 3 bfbs; even at a raw 341 skillspeed, it'll let you get 9 skill bfb because of how significant the skillspeed buff is.

When i was reading up on crit i read that each class has its own base crit rate separate from each other. Does anyone know dragoons?

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Originally Posted by TJKuro

When i was reading up on crit i read that each class has its own base crit rate separate from each other. Does anyone know dragoons?

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Our natural crit rate should be about 5%. Here is my source.

By the way, I'm loving your video breakdown of BFB usage, Dervy. It occurs to me that anyone who's having difficulty reaching the SS threshold necessary to land 9 GCDs could potentially switch to Dreadwyrm Greaves (assuming you have them) from Augmented Ironworks Sollerets with very little loss of power in terms of stat weights. On the other hand, it'd probably be better to just plug the necessary SS into Ariyala's and let it do its work.

Also, I wonder if there's a SS value at which we could cleanly gain the 9 GCD BFB bonus while also falling under the maximum threshold for Life Surge + Chaos Thrust usage? With good latency, something like 380-390? Theoretically, that might be ideal for min-maxing, assuming you can perfectly execute BFB and avoid the awkward timing that Aiurily mentioned. Should be about +2 PPS from LS+CT usage and +4 PPS from the BFB management.

I'm still managing to do everything perfectly with 397S, but, I have to clip my GDC slightly with my second Jump, and everything from then on is good.

Also, base Crit should be 5.3%, no?

Yeah, you're right about the crit. My mistake; bluegartr's source started at a slightly higher crit rate than baseline.

Also, I guess I was thinking of 390 as the "safe" SS value for the LS+CT rotation. No reason you couldn't manage it at around 400 SS, though. Score another point for your crafted BiS set (in this case, the cheapest one).

Well, 390 is the safest range. With the 4 ACC zeta build I posted a few days back, you get 386ss, which is still manageable for me to get 9bfbs. The timing is tighter for me due to my higher ping.

I've not really tried to see how well 9GDCs bfbs work at 400+ ss, but LS FT/CT rotating doesn't work as well without having to clip GDCs slightly.

So, to clarify, http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/PW0Y is your official crafted BiS set for FCOB now, correct? How does it compare to your previous sets in terms of cost?

Also, I'm just spitballing here, but there are a few interesting thresholds that we seem to have established for Skill Speed.

base-to-400: LS+CT rotation is possible
380+: 9 GCDs can be buffed per BFB, with good latency
480+: becomes difficult/impossible to reach 2nd Invigorate usage
630+: rotation clips by an entire GCD (pointless theoretical number)

Therefore, the ideal Skill Speed should be around 380-400. Assuming perfect execution, it should give us benefits beyond the raw stat weights associated with Skill Speed.

Yeaa... and no. I still need to find out whether those exact melds on the Zeta are possible or not. I believe Dunncan is willing to take one for the team and I'm also remelding my Zeta as we speak.

The next issue is this - 4 Acc is only good for T13. Dropping down to T12 and T11 accuracy lowers the Accuracy on Zeta by 1. For content below (T10, SCBOB, Primals), it changes to Max DET/CRT build.

So the real question is, are you willing to meld 4 accuracy on your weapon to absolutely max out your T13 stats and take a 0.223/0.892 CRT weighting hit for lower turns/content, or not?

Personally, I would.

Hm. I mean, at some point, you'll probably find that your group has to hold DPS before the 52% threshold in T13, and that the adds phase can be dealt with pretty comfortably. So, the only real advantage of min-maxing in T13 (besides... well... min-maxing for it's own sake) will be that it shortens the duration of the final phase, potentially reducing the number of mechanics that you have to deal with.

I mean, progression should be your priority, and the DPS check in T13 is pretty real. But between all of the mechanics that screw you out of uptime and the incredibly stupid way that they programmed the adds spawns in phase 2, T13 kind of sucks all the fun out of maximizing DPS. Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Hm. I mean, at some point, you'll probably find that your group has to hold DPS before the 52% threshold in T13.

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Uh or you can just push the phase before mega flare if your static has the DPS, and kill the wyvern with the other adds on P3 after the first DBs.

Sure, but that is once you are past "some point".

Most groups I know are somewhere between being able to push before Megaflare and having to hold DPS for consistency's sake until the 2nd Rage of Bahamut happens. I really can't fault groups that can't push before Megaflare for choosing to throttle, pushing at an awkward time is more annoying and risky than it's worth IMO, and I say this as someone in a group who skips Earthshaker 2 and pushes Gigaflare #2 before Megaflare.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I'm still managing to do everything perfectly with 397S, but, I have to clip my GDC slightly with my second Jump, and everything from then on is good.

Also, base Crit should be 5.3%, no?

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Ah do u know if the formula in that page is accurate? 0.0697xcrt - 18.xxx?

Also I recently came back but got all caught up on primals first to get my diamond spear. i'm sitting at i120s and i'm gonna start trying to clear t9. Having never done it before, any dragoon specific tips you guys could give me?

(CRT*0.0697)-18.437, yup. It's accurate and matches the set of data that Valky collected. The Japanese use ((CRT-341)/(341/25.6))+5.0 however. Their CRT formula calculates Crit Chance% slightly higher at high levels of Critical Hit Rating though.

Finished my Animus with 11 Accuracy boys. Sory, couldn't resist to go on with the quest. But in the meantime, I'm gathering all that Crit/Det IV's I need and, once I have it, I'll sure give it a shot on that 4 Acc build.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Hm. I mean, at some point, you'll probably find that your group has to hold DPS before the 52% threshold in T13, and that the adds phase can be dealt with pretty comfortably. So, the only real advantage of min-maxing in T13 (besides... well... min-maxing for it's own sake) will be that it shortens the duration of the final phase, potentially reducing the number of mechanics that you have to deal with.

I mean, progression should be your priority, and the DPS check in T13 is pretty real. But between all of the mechanics that screw you out of uptime and the incredibly stupid way that they programmed the adds spawns in phase 2, T13 kind of sucks all the fun out of maximizing DPS. Just my two cents.

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Nope, we pushed DPS to where the 3rd add in Phase 2 spawns with the other adds after Divebombs in phase 3 lol, it's perfect.

Uh-oh... Guys halp.

Valky and the Japanese were/are right. Jobs/Classes have different damage coefficients which affect the damage formula.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Uh-oh... Guys halp.

Valky and the Japanese were/are right. Jobs/Classes have different damage coefficients which affect the damage formula.

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I'm not gonna lie, I noticed that BRD and ARC have different damage formulas, but really didn't feel like pointing it out. >_>

Fucks sake I'm so pissed. I'm testing NIN, WAR, DRG, ROG, MRD & LNC atm.

wtb ilvl 100+ 50 blm + smn

EDIT: brb gunna bow down to our Japanese overlords. So far their theories are correct. Classes/jobs all fit into different "Tiers", which are all affected by different modifiers. For example, from my data so far:

Tier 1) Dragoon
Tier 2) Ninja
Tier 3) Warrior & Lancer & Marauder
Tier 4) Rogue

Though, the Japanese have this tiering system:

Tier 1) Dragoon/Bard
Tier 2) Ninja/Monk
Tier 3) Warrior & Lancer & Archer
Tier 4) Marauder & Rogue
Tier 5) Paladin
Tier 6-9 = casters.

I think the JP might of botched Marauder, or maybe I need to collect more data points. I really doubt my parses are inaccurate.

My static honestly hasn't tried pushing that hard in T13 since we bumped up against the awkward transition issue. We'll have to attempt it at some point and see if we can get the timing right. Maybe tonight.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Fucks sake I'm so pissed. I'm testing NIN, WAR, DRG, ROG, MRD & LNC atm.

wtb ilvl 100+ 50 blm + smn

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Y'know the best part? In June everything changes. :D

I'd like to think that the formula for the different classes and different jobs would be the same, that all jobs have X formula and all classes Y. But obviously I have nothing to base that on but dreams.

Anyway, can't help you with the BLM or SMN unless you'd take a lower ilvl SMN (somewhere around 70 but with wave book).

Well, I'm currently doing tests with these values:

52 WD, 365 STR/DEX, 224 DET, mainly as that's the highest possible WD of a Bard....

And then I realised there isn't a 52 Magic Damage caster weapon....

Since WD is probably linear, you can probably lerp it without a problem. Probably.

(I wonder how this affects caster auto-attacks lol)

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Well, I'm currently doing tests with these values:

52 WD, 365 STR/DEX, 224 DET, mainly as that's the highest possible WD of a Bard....

And then I realised there isn't a 52 Magic Damage caster weapon....

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Err. . .maybe I'm going crazy, but xivdb isn't showing any 52 WD weapons for the other physical jobs, either. >_>

I'm curious, what exactly is the significance in this discovery?

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

I'm curious, what exactly is the significance in this discovery?

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Well, thus far we've been using the same damage formulas for everyone when trying to decide stat weights. If the damage formula has been wrong this whole time, then the weights themselves have also been wrong. That, and, y'know, it's nice to know what's going on behind the scenes. But mostly that first thing.

http://i.imgur.com/9NGv1yY.png

600 on t11, without a Ninja :D


Wonder if i could reach 620+ with an shorter clear

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Well, thus far we've been using the same damage formulas for everyone when trying to decide stat weights. If the damage formula has been wrong this whole time, then the weights themselves have also been wrong. That, and, y'know, it's nice to know what's going on behind the scenes. But mostly that first thing.

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Oh, cool. I assumed correctly then.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Fucks sake I'm so pissed. I'm testing NIN, WAR, DRG, ROG, MRD & LNC atm.

wtb ilvl 100+ 50 blm + smn

EDIT: brb gunna bow down to our Japanese overlords. So far their theories are correct. Classes/jobs all fit into different "Tiers", which are all affected by different modifiers. For example, from my data so far:

Tier 1) Dragoon
Tier 2) Ninja
Tier 3) Warrior & Lancer & Marauder
Tier 4) Rogue

Though, the Japanese have this tiering system:

Tier 1) Dragoon/Bard
Tier 2) Ninja/Monk
Tier 3) Warrior & Lancer & Archer
Tier 4) Marauder & Rogue
Tier 5) Paladin
Tier 6-9 = casters.

I think the JP might of botched Marauder, or maybe I need to collect more data points. I really doubt my parses are inaccurate.

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What data do you need?

What I really need are parses of the Warrior, Marauder and Rogue, spamming a 150 potency skill, but each need exactly the same stats, so 52 WD, 400-500 STR/DEX, and 250+ DET.

The ACT logs should be of the 150 potency ability used. All you need to do is go into ACT, go into the abilities log, right click -> copy as "plain formatted text" and throw it into pastebin or something.

The first thing I need to do is establish what "tier" jobs are in (if any)

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Originally Posted by Dervy

What I really need are parses of the Warrior, Marauder and Rogue, spamming a 150 potency skill, but each need exactly the same stats, so 52 WD, 400-500 STR/DEX, and 250+ DET.

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Working up some data sets for ya now on ROG. You're gonna have to deal with 51 WD, though, because 52 WD doesn't exist. :p

BTW, do you want poisons on, off, or both and clearly labeled?

Oh fuck, it was 51 WD. Why was I thinking 52 WD, lol... Anyway, that solves my problem with Black Mage. Poisons off if you don't mind :D.

Any chance you could get a similar parse with a Marauder or Warrior as well with the same stats?

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Oh fuck, it was 51 WD. Why was I thinking 52 WD, lol... Anyway, that solves my problem with Black Mage. Poisons off if you don't mind :D.

Any chance you could get a similar parse with a Marauder or Warrior as well with the same stats?

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My MRD is level 15 :p

Any preference for number of whacks? Was thinking a nice round 1k each, but that might be a bit excessive?

Too excessive. All I need is a parse until you have a definitive min/max value. Usually takes a good 5-10 minutes of smacking that Dummy in the face repeatedly. Not going to go into methods how to "effectively" do it and AFK, I'll leave it up to your imagination :P

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Too excessive. All I need is a parse until you have a definitive min/max value. Usually takes a good 5-10 minutes of smacking that Dummy in the face repeatedly. Not going to go into methods how to "effectively" do it and AFK, I'll leave it up to your imagination :P

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Psht. Go big or go home, right? Anyway, first batch done with this gear: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q2IN (with RSE for modesty)

Pasting from ACT is being weird, so I'll manually give the damage ranges.

Min Crit: 302
Max Crit: 333
Min Norm: 201
Max Norm: 222

Crit rate if you care is 11% over 600+ swings.

Will edit in more stuff as I do more iterations.

Second set: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q2IV Corrected the race, Dex is still 450 because no jobstone. Changes from old set is +20 Determination and +37 Crit. Well, and minus some SS, but that doesn't matter.

Min Crit: 304
Max Crit: 337
Min Norm: 203
Max Norm: 224

Crit rate of 13% over 500 swings.

Third set stats (because ariyala isn't gonna let me construct the actual set): 400 Dex, 288 Determination, 446 Crit, 361 SS. That's -50 Dex, same Det, and +6 Crit.

Min Crit: 274
Max Crit: 302
Min Norm: 182
Max Norm: 201

Crit rate of 14% over 500 swings. Also, get the feeling there should have been a 273 crit at some point, but go figure. . .

Fourth set, kept 400 Dex while dropping Det back down to 268. 417 Crit.

Min Crit: 271
Max Crit: 300
Min Norm: 181
Max Norm: 200

Crit rate of 12% over 500 swings. Pretty much the ~2 damage change I was expecting. Next iteration will be best gear I can get, just for kicks.

Final set, 577 Dexterity, 349 Determination, 446 Crit.

Min Crit: 391
Max Crit: 432
Min Norm: 261
Max Norm: 288

Crit rate of 12%, because odds are funky.

450 or 470 DEX?

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Originally Posted by Dervy

450 or 470 DEX?

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450. Site is assuming I have jobstone equipped.

Coooool.

Here's a download link for my spreadsheet btw if anyone's interested:

http://www.filedropper.com/jobdmg-52wd365ap224det