"Everyone's so open and friendly" is a lie

https://i.redd.it/gstfo94jkf181.png

We can't say GCBTW anymore now it's BCBTW

It sucks since we can't tell people they are incompetent anymore, alliance raids take 1 hour to finish (without wype), what a hell.

Paradigm Tower in that amount of time what a pleasure...

I guess all the skilled players are on break.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

https://i.redd.it/gstfo94jkf181.png

We can't say GCBTW anymore now it's BCBTW

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Look, there is what the marketing team presents and there is reality.

When you're in the game, you can see how unpleasant people are when something goes wrong and several minutes before, nobody talks about raid alliances and others.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

https://i.redd.it/gstfo94jkf181.png

We can't say GCBTW anymore now it's BCBTW

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Sure we can, cause this doesn't change there is still some less pleasant people inside of the community.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

Oh wow! This thread is STILL ongoing!

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People got nothing better to do until thursday.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Look, there is what the marketing team presents and there is reality.

When you're in the game, you can see how unpleasant people are when something goes wrong and several minutes before, nobody talks about raid alliances and others.

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Seeing as your previous post highlighted the complaint that you could 'no longer' call someone incompetent I'm not even sure what to take of that.. Calling someone incompetent is rude and it is largely counterproductive to do so if you aren't offering advice. If you have the gall to do that then have the common courtesy of telling people what they're doing wrong.

Besides, you have never really been able to do it. You'd know that if you checked the old terms of service. The rules were largely unchanged with the main additions simply being examples. Because apparently it was difficult to know what constituted as harassment, being rude, undermining, or instigating. Etc.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

https://i.redd.it/gstfo94jkf181.png

We can't say GCBTW anymore now it's BCBTW

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the funny thing is, if you see what the jury % vs the normal votes. not surprising

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Seeing as your previous post highlighted the complaint that you could 'no longer' call someone incompetent I'm not even sure what to take of that.. Calling someone incompetent is rude and it is largely counterproductive to do so if you aren't offering advice. If you have the gall to do that then have the common courtesy of telling people what they're doing wrong.

Besides, you have never really been able to do it. You'd know that if you checked the old terms of service. The rules were largely unchanged with the main additions simply being examples. Because apparently it was difficult to know what constituted as harassment, being rude, undermining, or instigating. Etc.

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Well listen, we have to express our frustrations rather than play the sheep, unless we risk a ban.

People are mostly incompetent, that's a fact.

I probably shocked your sensibility without meaning to, what do you want?

And, I have never been banned for telling a person that they should learn to play.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Well listen, we have to express our frustrations rather than play the sheep, unless we risk a ban.

People are mostly incompetent, that's a fact.

I probably shocked your sensibility without meaning to, what do you want?

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Yes and you vent your frustrations elsewhere, or behind closed doors, because it does nothing except aim to fuel an unpleasant situation. Whether it is the truth or not is frankly irrelevant.

I only take issue with how counterproductive it is, and how you seemingly ride the desire to call someone incompetent, whilst subsequently making a sarcastic post about how 'pleasant' that community is when something does not go their way. This has nothing to do with me being sensitive or not. Almost completely oblivious to the fact that such comments very often create an unpleasant situation.

To be frank I want nothing from you, I just felt it was an interesting thing to point out. These things generally happen when you post on a public forum.

Most of the people I encounter who fixate on their supposed right to call other players bad aren't even good at the game themselves. It's probably insecurity; It's easier to elevate yourself by putting others down I guess.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

It sucks since we can't tell people they are incompetent anymore, alliance raids take 1 hour to finish (without wype), what a hell.

Paradigm Tower in that amount of time what a pleasure...

I guess all the skilled players are on break.

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The population of the game has expanded. You will find new players in every second game. It is pretty normal that they do not know all the mechanics for the first time. Nobody can know something that they never known before.

I did 3 ShB and 3 HW relic weapons in the last 2 weeks and ran CT raids probably 70+ times during this time. I have seen different teams and compositions during this period. There is no need to generalize. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you do not. If someone wants pro players I highly suggest to ask around their own FC to run dailies with, or join a "pro" linkshell. I am in a linkshell that runs Minimum item level oldschool content and sometimes spend 5 hours learning a content that everyone else does in 5-10 minutes because they go unsynced.

I understand that people can be snowflakes sometimes and get frustrated if you point out their mistake. But a very easy way to remedy is that you tell them how to do better instead of telling them, "oh you f*cked up" or "oh you are incompetent..." - these will not help the raid to go faster. Nothing wrong with being pissed at people for not learning from mistakes. But on the other hand, it is hard to learn when you dont know what you did wrong or how to do things better... I have sen many people leaving raids cause of sprout's slow learning, but they never even tried to help the sprouts to learn. To be honest, I feel like its best for everyone if they leave and we get another person to fill.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

It sucks since we can't tell people they are incompetent anymore, alliance raids take 1 hour to finish (without wype), what a hell.

Paradigm Tower in that amount of time what a pleasure...

I guess all the skilled players are on break.

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Alternative theory: there's one consistent in your experiences and it probably isn't that every time you do a raid you suddenly find yourself in a parallel dimension where everyone but you is magically bad at the game.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Well listen, we have to express our frustrations rather than play the sheep, unless we risk a ban.

People are mostly incompetent, that's a fact.

I probably shocked your sensibility without meaning to, what do you want?

And, I have never been banned for telling a person that they should learn to play.

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Heres some Advice.....GIVE Advice.
Try BEING Helpful, address the issue, and offer a solution, ask if the person knows what they are doing. And do so, without being a Jerk about it.
Im sure calling someone Incompetent, general Name calling and putting somebody down isn't going to make them play better or learn anything. Your more likely to start a fight and an argument, or probly get reported for being toxic, which means nothing gets done.

Try that 1st. If they are rude back and are clearly not taking any advice, then nothing you an do.
But I promise calling them Incompetent does nothing useful either. Unless you just enjoy insulting people.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

It sucks since we can't tell people they are incompetent anymore, alliance raids take 1 hour to finish (without wype), what a hell..

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Sure I've slowed down a bit so maybe I'm missing these long raids ... but what raid is taking an hour? Ever?

is Chaos DC that much different than Aether?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Sure I've slowed down a bit so maybe I'm missing these long raids ... but what raid is taking an hour? Ever?

is Chaos DC that much different than Aether?

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I have no expirience with Aether, but probably not. Tho it's possible to do raid in 1 hour w/o a complete wipe, just kill 2 groups entirely every fight and let remaining group do all the job while still collecting all the tankbusters. But in that case I struggle to understand why not start over with explaining what's goin on. Or leave if the speed is not to your liking and bothers you so much.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Look, there is what the marketing team presents and there is reality.

When you're in the game, you can see how unpleasant people are when something goes wrong and several minutes before, nobody talks about raid alliances and others.

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have some raids been groaners? sure can. never had anything run out to an hour though.

but then, apparently we are all carebears on Crystal, guess we still get the job done though ^^

I am so happy I am not on a "leet" server group, things seem to take a lot longer

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Originally Posted by Hatfright

I have no expirience with Aether, but probably not. Tho it's possible to do raid in 1 hour w/o a complete wipe, just kill 2 groups entirely every fight and let remaining group do all the job while still collecting all the tankbusters. But in that case I struggle to understand why not start over with explaining what's goin on. Or leave if the speed is not to your liking and bothers you so much.

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Aether is supposedly the "raiding" DC, so I was thinking mayyyybe we just don't have that kind of problem cause the population is all "tryhards".... but.. yeah. I don't think I've ever had something that bad other than day 0 science of new raids. Even if other whole parts of the alliance die , the RDMs and Healers (and SOMETIMES the SMN, hee hee) usually recover that pretty dang quick.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

is Chaos DC that much different than Aether?

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Don't think it is. I've been running raids a bunch, trying to gear all my jobs before the expansion, and I can't even remember the last time I ran into a raid wipe.
Completion time somewhat vary and sometimes one party will wipe but is usually instantly raised.

I feel like some people don't understand what freedom of speech really is, and why in a video game you not only don't have that, and you should not have it.


This whole thing is because of how aggressive our culture is with each other. We are hyper competitive, and in MMO since we spend so much time in them, time we will never get back. "Fun" is subjective but seems to tied to many mmo players progression as well. If I log on, I want to feel like I progress in something. If others hold me back. I should be able to tell them they are, and they are ruining my fun.


I don't have this problem myself, but that is how my husband acts in other mmorpgs. If a group is wasting his time, he is not scared to say it. Even if I find that immature, He at least is mature enough to respect a games rules, and standards. We are humans so we can adapt to things.


So even if this fake kindness is "fake". That is fine? Most humans are not decent people, and I've seen proof of that in the last 8 or so years more so than normal. So a game that forces you to play nice or pay the price is what mmo players need. In fact after watching new world. I think it should be the standards.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Heres some Advice.....GIVE Advice.
Try BEING Helpful, address the issue, and offer a solution, ask if the person knows what they are doing. And do so, without being a Jerk about it.

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even if i absolutly agree with you there, and are right on this, ppl just have too much pride to even accept advice, playing since 2.0, and been a drk since heavensward released and never changed, its absolutly MINDBLOWING how many ppl just will take GREAT offense if you ever even "suggest" to give an advice, as a main tank (and many will be in my feet here) its a repeating thing, you see offended ppl everywhere for the slightest of thing, ppl are toxic with too much pride its a fact, and because of that yes ! i admit im tired of "trying" to give advice, because i dont want to risk having a god damn argument on "you dont pay my sub" thing too tired of it, tryed many MANY time, and way more time than i wished for ended in a pointless arguments, because again ppl have too much pride to even admit that they may be wrong

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

Look, there is what the marketing team presents and there is reality.

When you're in the game, you can see how unpleasant people are when something goes wrong and several minutes before, nobody talks about raid alliances and others.

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Maybe that is because, ironically, everyone with your attitude decided to pile into one data center. You get into a "raid sever" but you apparently can't complete a raid because you all cancel each other out after one mistake.

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Originally Posted by anguel

even if i absolutly agree with you there, and are right on this, ppl just have too much pride to even accept advice, playing since 2.0, and been a drk since heavensward released and never changed, its absolutly MINDBLOWING how many ppl just will take GREAT offense if you ever even "suggest" to give an advice, as a main tank (and many will be in my feet here) its a repeating thing, you see offended ppl everywhere for the slightest of thing, ppl are toxic with too much pride its a fact, and because of that yes ! i admit im tired of "trying" to give advice, because i dont want to risk having a god damn argument on "you dont pay my sub" thing too tired of it, tryed many MANY time, and way more time than i wished for ended in a pointless arguments, because again ppl have too much pride to even admit that they may be wrong

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In my experience most ppl dont know what being helpful actually means, and think just lambasting someone and insulting them is Constructive Criticism and is suppose to help them. And when it proves ineffective they always act all surprised and try to cover up with "Im trying to help you"
When...all they did was just insult people. Which then creates a resentment which makes them Hostile to anybody who might actually try to be helpful.
Not that Im trying to ignore or discredit what your saying, it is an Issue on both sides and I get it, but it mostly comes down to how its done; which may involve the unfair balance of you taking someones crap to try and eventually get through to them.

And....if Diplomacy fails.....you tried...it sucks and feels like wasted time. But you can't esuna stupid, or help people unwilling to accept it.
Just find a new group.

This whole being helpful thing is not as nice as you all make it to be. Many players who play other mmos, have went through so much drama and "This is how you need to do it" Pep talks, that that sort of kindness is not needed or welcome by them. And can you really blame them? If you doing a pug group. Just accept that players will do it for fun, and helping them play better might not be wanted. A bad group is not that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Sure I've slowed down a bit so maybe I'm missing these long raids ... but what raid is taking an hour? Ever?

is Chaos DC that much different than Aether?

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while I don't completely agree with their point, I've had multiple WoD's, dun scaiths and ivalice raids that took over an hour on primal

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

So even if this fake kindness is "fake". That is fine? Most humans are not decent people, and I've seen proof of that in the last 8 or so years more so than normal. So a game that forces you to play nice or pay the price is what mmo players need. In fact after watching new world. I think it should be the standards.

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This. Final Fantasy XIV has helped me understand more than anything that humans are naturally competitive, self-interested, and crave dominance and power at the expense of others. It’s a tough lesson to learn, and it’s even more jarring that people pretend that the FFXIV player base is a paradise. It’s not, it’s just as savage as WoW or other games. What Square Enix does is give you the ability to opt out of that interaction while also being able to play the game with other people. If you want to unleash the social Darwinism simulator that is the greater FFXIV community, people are welcome to do so at their own will outside of the game. If only we had more robust in-game chat features like a persistent chat log, offline tells, and voice chat so we can kick Discord to the curb (a pipe dream, but alas). Those features would really allow FFXIV to fulfill the vision that Square Enix has of being a friendly community.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

This. Final Fantasy XIV has helped me understand more than anything that humans are naturally competitive, self-interested, and crave dominance and power at the expense of others. It’s a tough lesson to learn, and it’s even more jarring that people pretend that the FFXIV player base is a paradise. It’s not, it’s just as savage as WoW or other games. What Square Enix does is give you the ability to opt out of that interaction while also being able to play the game with other people. If you want to unleash the social Darwinism simulator that is the greater FFXIV community, people are welcome to do so at their own will outside of the game. If only we had more robust in-game chat features like a persistent chat log, offline tells, and voice chat so we can kick Discord to the curb (a pipe dream, but alas). Those features would really allow FFXIV to fulfill the vision that Square Enix has of being a friendly community.

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omg an FFXIV with in game voice chat and community tools that are actually good? Be still my heart! You are describing online utopia.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

This whole being helpful thing is not as nice as you all make it to be. Many players who play other mmos, have went through so much drama and "This is how you need to do it" Pep talks, that that sort of kindness is not needed or welcome by them. And can you really blame them? If you doing a pug group. Just accept that players will do it for fun, and helping them play better might not be wanted. A bad group is not that big of a deal.

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If you want to be a clown there is circus for thar. Be happy people give you a chance instead of kicking you right of the bat.

People simply don't like to be told they're wrong, regardless of how nice you are. Effectively receiving criticism is a learned behavior. This is basic human nature, and you will encounter it in any space, be it work, school or a video game like FFXIV.

The FFXIV community is weird in comparison to other games though, in that here we blame the person reaching out and giving the advice rather than the person who becomes aggressive after receiving it. This is extremely disheartening to many people who are genuinely trying to reach out and help other players; I've seen many, many chatlogs and cases where someone is being as nice as humanly possible while giving advice, and the other person still launches into a tirade and bitterly attacks them. I've even seen it happen in settings where people willingly submitted themselves for criticism. I know a lot of FFXIV educators that have quit teaching entirely because they encountered one too many cases of this kind of thing.

Personally, I switched from teaching pug learning parties to taking on individual, dedicated learners. I still get the occasional crazy, but the environment is much more controlled and all of the communication takes place on a third-party platform. Improved my teaching experience ten-fold.

For me, rather than giving me the "All nice and caring spiel" tell me straight to the point what I did wrong. I dont need it to be nicely dressed, get to the point, be it with insults or without. Unlike half of the player base, I have thick skin, Call me what you want as long as it gets the point across, and I'm not so sensitive that I will report you for doing so. Saves me, you and the others time.

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Originally Posted by Nanchi

I really don't think it's the policies fault for people to be passive aggressive, they will always be with or without policies. This goes for every community, rules help silence truly toxic people, but it won't stop the 70% less "toxic" people to behave like adults.
Been playing the game for 8 years and I had overwhelmingly positive experience but that is because I left every circle asap that seemed very immature and drama seeking. Trust me, changing the rules will not change peoples behaviors and personality. It's just a matter of being able to weed out the really dodgy ones in order to find normal folks to play with.

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This is the way.

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Originally Posted by Razdazim

Let me tell you something, I live in a family where passive aggressive behavior thrives. It creates the same problems as being rude, expect when people openly speak and get called out for being rude sometimes apologies happen. Apologies never happen with passive aggressive behavior as it makes things fester creating resentment on both sides. This attitude is a blight upon modern society because no one has enough guts to deal with problems like adults and sit down to discuss problems.

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When it comes to people being passive aggressive, that's likely a learned a behavior that has been part of said person's character for a long time. In my opinion, lifting restrictions on toxic behavior won't make an indirect person become direct. To me, when people are passive aggressive, it's best not to engage them. Give them the gift of missing you by not doing content with them and not chatting with them any more. You can also call them out on their behavior without being toxic.

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Originally Posted by Ozzmal

Im sorry you've had a bad experience, but its important to remember that anecdotal evidence doesn't always reflect what everyone else experiences. My time has been very pleasant, I can count on one hand the number of times ive seen people being rude or even silent after a wipe that was my fault. Most of the time I simply explain my mistake and people seem to be perfectly fine with it. My experiences are anecdotal as well, clearly, but it does fall in line with the reputation that the game is known for. Ive seen very toxic games, I really dont mind them that much myself, but honestly that kind of thing makes a video game worse. Jerks being forced to remain silent in a game is quite a different situation than families who cant communicate. But regardless I hope your experience improves, and if you ever want a friendly party member who wont be passive aggressive, feel free to add me to your friends and we can run some content if your on Primal =)

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This is wholesome. I like it.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

It's called have a civil discussion, or debate. You don't need a fight or argument to get our point across...if you do, you may want to revisit how you respond to different situations and adjust your attitude accordingly. Getting mad isn't the only option available to people.

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This right here. Couldn't agree more.

I've generally found FF14 to be a friendly community in game... some days more than others. Generally I find people place too much weight on online social interactions.

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Originally Posted by Escalon

For me, rather than giving me the "All nice and caring spiel" tell me straight to the point what I did wrong. I dont need it to be nicely dressed, get to the point, be it with insults or without. Unlike half of the player base, I have thick skin, Call me what you want as long as it gets the point across, and I'm not so sensitive that I will report you for doing so. Saves me, you and the others time.

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You dont have to sugarcoat it and be a complete weenie about it and baby someone, but simply addressing it and offering a solution is more sensible then just insulting somebody.
Maybe Im just different, but if the only criticism Im getting is I suck, then it gets me nowhere and doesn't help me improve, the only thing Im learning is your an as---le (Not you specifically lol) and Im more likely to just ignore or retaliate and be snarky.

I've found the community overall is pretty friendly. Just try to avoid disagreeing with the direction of the game or give any criticism, because a portion of the community can become downright toxic when you do so.

As a gay man I have to say WoW was a lot worse for me in the respects that if I even casually brought up a partner it was met with open hostility and disgust and the environment here in that regard is night and day.

That being said I would say both are equally as bad as each other. Anyone who says WoW doesn't have backhanded and passive aggressive drama has clearly never been in a guild (my old one blew up because of relationship drama) and anyone who claims the FFXIV community is all sunshine and rainbows is kidding themselves because some of the bullying that goes on especially in Novice Network is pretty nasty.

I would say the big difference is that FFXIV the greater part of the community tries to be friendly off the bat whereas with WoW you need to get to know people and run some content with them before they open up but the community is full of generous and kind people as well.

I don't understand your problem with the so-called "hypocrisy" that can exist on FFIXV.

I have some experience with MMORPGs. And I have to admit that most people don't know how to behave properly. This makes the safeguards put in place on this game necessary.

So yes: the current rules do lead to a certain hypocrisy. But if it can prevent the Sunday madman from taking his anger out on a guy who didn't ask for it... I'll buy it.

Last thing: it's naive to think that hypocrisy is not a necessity in a social context. Politeness is nothing more than a minor form of hypocrisy, and it is highly desirable to use it if you want to avoid unnecessary conflicts. So to see people complaining about this IG social polish when they use it H24 IRL... It makes me laugh.

Would you prefer Noob get better or Party just disbanding without saying anything.

I would rather party disband ,avoid Savage tier if you can’t take the competition, it is optional and it is competitive.

Join practice PF and don’t join Duty complete PF till you see ENRAGE on practice, I just finished savage P1s after 4 days of constant pugging, steady does it, focus on improving yourself. DONT EXPECT TO BE CARRIED ON SAVAGE ,ULTIMATES

Competition will make environment toxic but as long is it is civil and doesn’t end with name calling I am OK with that. FFXIV savage , Ultimate are competitive, don’t expect people to carry you. AGAIN THIS IS OPTIONAL PART OF THE GAME.

I have yet to find passive aggressive people on non competitive part of FF14, competition does interesting thing to human mind.

Not gonna read through the whole topic but yeah it's laughable. XIV is just mean girl mentality.

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Originally Posted by Razdazim

Let me tell you something, I live in a family where passive aggressive behavior thrives. It creates the same problems as being rude, expect when people openly speak and get called out for being rude sometimes apologies happen. Apologies never happen with passive aggressive behavior as it makes things fester creating resentment on both sides. This attitude is a blight upon modern society because no one has enough guts to deal with problems like adults and sit down to discuss problems.

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"Co-dependent personality issue" I'm guessing.
(I think that's the term, though it's not really descriptive of the issue.)

You are finding a lot of passive-aggressive people, because it's your baseline from your background. In life we sadly tend to seek out and / or take in / most notice traits we are attuned to. It's why my sister has never dated a non-abusive man. Well once, but she dropped him for being too 'bland'...

You see it all the time. It's why another friend of mine constantly has powerful people asking him for advice or to hang out. He was raised in a super positive dynamic and raised by people that went around helping highly effective people solve their issues... so I watch the guy and he's like a magnet for good luck.

I've rarely ever found anyone passive aggressive in FFXIV. When I tried to get into Savage back in Shadowbringers I did find I kept encountering some of the same personalities that had bothered me in some content I'd run in WoW... And it's almost certainly a reflection on how I myself approached things.


It's hard to do - but you need to not carry your own baggage with you.

But where that isn't possible, and it rarely is, then it's useful to remember that we almost always find what we expect to find - so we need to work on analyzing our expectations. If you set out subconsciously expecting to encounter jerks - then you will heighten your memory of bad experiences, and shape you reaction to an experience around that, then take on conduct that encourages the experience to continue down that road.