Highly Notorious Monsters

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Please explain why Open World content should be one "tier" under instanced content in terms of obtainable gear.

Also, are open world HNM's not "real"? I am confused by your statement. Unless you are trying to say instanced is real and HNM's are fake.. even then I would still be confused.

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Well, it jus seems that instanced content where you actually have to form a limited amount of people with specific jobs should be rewarded better than an HNM where the entire server can all attack it at the same time.

Open world content should be just as rewarding. This is the problem with new MMOs, they put everything in instances and pretty much negate the reason for being an MMO in the first place. Same with quest based leveling, what's the purpose of having monsters strown about that isn't part of your kill 5 boars for 7,000,000 exp and 70,000 gold quest completion?

If anything it should be a tier above instanced gear, not only will it drive competition up it will be very temptin to actually do the content.

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Originally Posted by firepixiedarien

Well, it jus seems that instanced content where you actually have to form a limited amount of people with specific jobs should be rewarded better than an HNM where the entire server can all attack it at the same time.

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Oh, in that sense then yes.

But we are talking about HNM's that can only be claimed by a single group. Lets say for instance, your linkshell. Not HNM's that anyone and everyone can attack, I agree that those kind of NM's shouldn't drop top tier gear.

But for the HNM's that you have to take a certain group against, I think those should drop top tier gear.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

If anything it should be a tier above instanced gear, not only will it drive competition up it will be very temptin to actually do the content.

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I agree wholeheartedly. That sir, is a touchy subject though with the casual MMO players. Many discussions can be brought up with that statement. I agree though, I also think Open-World content should have drops that are a tier above that of instanced material, BUT.. that is just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Open world content should be just as rewarding. This is the problem with new MMOs, they put everything in instances and pretty much negate the reason for being an MMO in the first place. Same with quest based leveling, what's the purpose of having monsters strown about that isn't part of your kill 5 boars for 7,000,000 exp and 70,000 gold quest completion?

If anything it should be a tier above instanced gear, not only will it drive competition up it will be very temptin to actually do the content.

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I think he was just saying that they need to change the claiming first....
You can't have the best gear be dropped from a MOB that is easy for 25 people to zerg....

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Oh, in that sense then yes.

But we are talking about HNM's that can only be claimed by a single group. Lets say for instance, your linkshell. Not HNM's that anyone and everyone can attack, I agree that those kind of NM's shouldn't drop top tier gear.

But for the HNM's that you have to take a certain group against, I think those should drop top tier gear.

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Exactly... i agree... HNM should be 1 party only unless they are designed for an alliance

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Originally Posted by Rydin

I think he was just saying that they need to change the claiming first....
You can't have the best gear be dropped from a MOB that is easy for 25 people to zerg....

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I agree as well.

This just comes down to the basic system of, depending on the level of difficulty a certain monster to bring to the table, should dictate the quality of the drop.

An HNM that can be zerged down easy by 25 people can have a cool drop, sure. But definitely don't make it anything ground-breaking.

However, a Wyrm-type HNM that takes 25 highly skilled players around a half an hour to kill (and not an easy kill either), should justify legendary drops. Or atleast some great drops

No idea why the number 25 is being used either, lol

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Open world content should be just as rewarding. This is the problem with new MMOs, they put everything in instances and pretty much negate the reason for being an MMO in the first place. Same with quest based leveling, what's the purpose of having monsters strown about that isn't part of your kill 5 boars for 7,000,000 exp and 70,000 gold quest completion?

If anything it should be a tier above instanced gear, not only will it drive competition up it will be very temptin to actually do the content.

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I totally agree, I prefer Open-World content. But with the very first Player's Poll taken, it was decided that the focus be on Instanced content.

This is why *in the current state* of the game and its Instanced focus, Open-World HNMs should not drop the best gear (but next to best). And like i said, to discourage animosity between competing groups, they should be attackable by anyone at any time, but only people within a certain level can lot its drops.

Not gonna lie: whenever my LS in FF11 didn't get the claim on an HNM, I was always hoping the other LS would wipe.

Content exists so we can do it, but it should promote camaraderie, not animosity.

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Originally Posted by firepixiedarien

I totally agree, I prefer Open-World content. But with the very first Player's Poll taken, it was decided that the focus be on Instanced content.

This is why *in the current state* of the game and its Instanced focus, Open-World HNMs should not drop the best gear (but next to best). And like i said, to discourage animosity between competing groups, they should be attackable by anyone at any time, but only people within a certain level can lot its drops.

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The very first players poll was quite a while ago, was it not? After experiencing the instanced content, maybe some people feel as if Open World content would be refreshing as well.

I think the idea of massive HNM's that anyone can attack are cool, but we also need HNM's that can't be attacked by everyone, and just a specific group of people in a PT/Alliance. This type of HNM should drop great drops, that are not under that of an instanced raid. Sure, you can make the drops equal and not better, but don't make open world content have gear that is lackluster in appeal when compared to instanced drops. Make them equal. Make it to where people want to experience both.

HNMs? Fighting them was fun. Camping them and trying to beat bots to the claim was not. Would strongly prefer in-world instances or otherwise popped monsters to timed world spawns.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

HNMs? Fighting them was fun. Camping them and trying to beat bots to the claim was not. Would strongly prefer in-world instances or otherwise popped monsters to timed world spawns.

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thats why someone mentioned having them spawn over a greater area or in a few possible spots, which makes claim botting more difficult

If they do HNM they need to make it like Sandworm/Ixion but on a much more random scale. They started having the right idea with the WNM they have in the game right now but LOL @ those.

Maybe they could make big game HNMs (talking behemoth, aspid etc.) drop tokens exclusive to the particular NM (redeemable at NPC) to encourage fairer distribution through LS. Remember how Limbus runs used to work where ancient beast coins would be distributed evenly at the end? Personally I would prefer straight drops, but tokens might make for a more agreeable solution for some people.

Just an idea.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

If they do HNM they need to make it like Sandworm/Ixion but on a much more random scale. They started having the right idea with the WNM they have in the game right now but LOL @ those.

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I LOVE sandworms in the FF series....
Gigantic and cool...
+1 for this post

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Originally Posted by Abhayaa

Maybe they could make big game HNMs (talking behemoth, aspid etc.) drop tokens exclusive to the particular NM (redeemable at NPC) to encourage fairer distribution through LS. Remember how Limbus runs used to work where ancient beast coins would be distributed evenly at the end? Personally I would prefer straight drops, but tokens might make for a more agreeable solution for some people.

Just an idea.

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Interesting idea. This would definitely be a good compromise.

Let's use King Behemoth for example. Instead of obtaining his "drops", he dropped a set amount of tokens every kill. Somewhere, there would be an NPC to whom you could trade these tokens to in exchange for loot.

Lets say - Neptunal Abj.: Legs - 10 Tokens
Behemoth's Tounge - 5 Tokens
Behemoth's Hide - 1 Token
Defending Ring - 50 Tokens

I kinda like it. Most certainly encourages fair distribution.

Should the tokens be tradeable, or Rare-ex?

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

Interesting idea. This would definitely be a good compromise.

Let's use King Behemoth for example. Instead of obtaining his "drops", he dropped a set amount of tokens every kill. Somewhere, there would be an NPC to whom you could trade these tokens to in exchange for loot.

Lets say - Neptunal Abj.: Legs - 10 Tokens
Behemoth's Tounge - 5 Tokens
Behemoth's Hide - 1 Token
Defending Ring - 50 Tokens

I kinda like it. Most certainly encourages fair distribution.

Should the tokens be tradeable, or Rare-ex?

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Umm what's actually the difference between a certain HNM if it dropped a token or the armor itself? your idea does not make any sense to me lol.

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Originally Posted by Day_Night

Umm what's actually the difference between a certain HNM if it dropped a token or the armor itself? your idea does not make any sense to me lol.

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I guess I need to explain in more detail. Lets say of the aforementioned items, there is a 5% drop rate, and 1% drop rate on Defending ring. You can kill for weeks and weeks, and months and maybe only see a couple of each.

If the NM's dropped an equal amount of tokens every kill, you would be able to work at getting the items you are interested in without dealing with horrid drop rates. You would also not feel that pang of despair every time you killed the NM without drops, because with tokens there would be a set amount that would drop every kill. It would be up to your LS to split tokens equally each kill, or they could just go to a designated person, etc.

In the name of all that is good and holy please, please Yoshi-P do not listen to the people that are crying for return of open world HNMs.
It was the worst idea SE ever had, it was a system that drove thousands of people away, it was the reason why people spoke ill of the game.
If Yoshi wants to drive a stake through the heart of this game, this will be it. And the people in this thread will be the hand that drives the stake. They will bot, cheat, mpk, and destroy the community.
I hope you understand that Yoshi.

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Originally Posted by Cichy

In the name of all that is good and holy please, please Yoshi-P do not listen to the people that are crying for return of open world HNMs.
It was the worst idea SE ever had, it was a system that drove thousands of people away, it was the reason why people spoke ill of the game.
If Yoshi wants to drive a stake through the heart of this game, this will be it. And the people in this thread will be the hand that drives the stake. They will bot, cheat, mpk, and destroy the community.
I hope you understand that Yoshi.

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Yes! Let's listen to the voice of reason here!

Driving a stake through the heart of a game would be not listening to a large mass of people who are calling for the implementation of HNM's. Driving a stake through the heart of a game would be not implementing MORE content that an obvious large amount of players are seemingly interested in!

/e: Before you call for the "No-Like button", I as well wish they had one. Despite that, after reading every page of this thread, and counting the "In-Favor" vs "Against" crowd, I will be generous and say there is a 25% dislike, and 75% like amonst posts in this thread. I think 75% is a pretty good percentage, and would validate the idea that maybe they should look into some form of HNM, care to disagree?

Mr. Yoshi, the above poster claims HNM's drove thousands of people away, despite the fact that the last FF MMO title with HNM's held over 500,000 people in game at one point in time. I have a hard time believing that HNM's killed FFXI, but hey, that's just my opinion!

Furthermore, it becomes even more clear that the above poster failed to read up on the thread before he posted, as per the usual. I think he failed to comprehend the many pages on how we would like to come together and bring HNM's into the game with different aspects of implementation to nullify botting, cheating, and all the negative things that can coincide. People will always find ways to exploit certain aspects of the game, this comes with Open-World, Instanced, Duping etc. This will always happen, and it is up to the developer to change the code and fix the issues, and ban the abusers. Square-Enix should not deny the game certain content for the sole reason of possible exploits, as they can be patched.

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Originally Posted by Cichy

It was the worst idea SE ever had, it was a system that drove thousands of people away, it was the reason why people spoke ill of the game.
If Yoshi wants to drive a stake through the heart of this game, this will be it.

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strange then how ffxi was most popular in the prime of zilart HNM, right? strange also how ffxi continues to be more popular than ffxiv, and ffxi players aren't exactly fleeing that game in favor of this one. methinks you're inventing numbers based on your own biases, and your numbers don't exactly add up.

can you explain, though, how having HNM would ruin the game if they still kept instanced content for casuals and naysayers?

Cichy, I see you feel really strongly about this. However, in your post you don't even bother to explain why and how you feel the HNMs ruined FFXI.

You claim it was a system that "drove thousands of people away", and I'm really surprised to hear that, since I've never heard anyone quitting (or deciding not to even try) XI for the HNM system. On the contrary, for many players it seemed to be a system which kept them playing for years and years, and which they chose to use most of their playtime doing.

There were many downsides to the way HNMs were implemented in XI, and all of them have been brought up and discussed in this thread. I don't think anyone wants to bring the system to XIV exactly the way it was in XI, and people are willing to discuss the different possibilities for its implementation in XIV.

The point I'm trying to make here is that it's not really constructive to simply say "NO!" to a complex system which can be implemented in at least hundreds of different ways. Please try to explain what kind of things make open world HNMs undesirable, and maybe even think of ways to avoid those issues.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

thats why someone mentioned having them spawn over a greater area or in a few possible spots, which makes claim botting more difficult

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I'd rather it not be possible at all, than be more difficult. I don't want a competition. I just want to fight and kill a monster.

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strange then how ffxi was most popular in the prime of zilart HNM, right?

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The popularity of the game at the time had absolutely zero to do with HNMs. The vast majority of players never even experience one.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'd rather it not be possible at all, than be more difficult. I don't want a competition. I just want to fight and kill a monster.

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So rather than work to create a system of HNM spawn that would nullify botting, you would prefer a system to where there is no competition? You would prefer it to where there are no chances of you not getting the NM? You want everything to be assured and have no risk of not getting claim?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The popularity of the game at the time had absolutely zero to do with HNMs. The vast majority of players never even experience one.

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So you would like to tell everyone that HNM's had absolutely zero effect on the popularity of the game at that point in time?

And personally, I don't know many FFXI players who did not engage, at the bare minimum, a couple of HNM's during their career in game. These include HNM's like Simurgh, Roc, Serket, etc.

And even more, during Zilart, sky was the biggest and coolest thing to do. What was in Sky? Forced pop Notorious Monsters.

FFXIV without HNMs is like christmas without cookies: sure you might get lots of nice stuff, but in the end everything loses it's meaning and the joy of living is gone D:

One thing I'd love is to have more dynamic HNMs. Maybe something like in Skyrim where you actually spot a dragon flying above the landscape and then you'd have to follow it around, maybe gather your LS meanwhile and see where it lands. Or there could be a way to get the dragon to land.

Also many people seem to think that gear must always be either better or worse than every other piece. It tells something about the depth of the battle system and character development if it's somehow very difficult to create gear pieces that aren't directly comparable to each other. For example, in FFXI as PLD there were different sets for magic def, DD, fast cast, enmity, HP, sets for tanking as /WAR, /NIN, /RDM etc. and you couldn't say that a piece in my DD set was somehow better than a piece in HP set. Both had their uses.

Now I don't have any level 50s yet and I don't really know about stuff, but if there's only one viable build for each class/job, I'd say that's a case of boring design. The question that should HNMs drop better gear than instances is just, in my opinion, based on a very narrow perspective of what the battle system could, or should, offer.

So basically what I'm trying to ramble about is more diversity, both in enemies and gear and I really really don't see how adding HNMs could in any way be categorically a bad thing.

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So you would like to tell everyone that HNM's had absolutely zero effect on the popularity of the game at that point in time?

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Yes. Absolutely zero. Nobody bought the game because there were HNMs in it. In fact, nobody who bought the game likely knew what HNMs were. When zilart was out, the game was brand new in north america. It's purely because it was a young game, it was Final Fantasy, and it was an MMO with a real storyline.

HNMs were a part of the game, and they were something that some of the most advanced players in the game enjoyed, but they were not a selling point of the game or a reason why anyone picked the game up and started playing it.

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Forced pop Notorious Monsters.

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Yes. FORCED POP NMs. Not world spawns. Even then, we didn't look at the box of FFXI and say, "Ohh, there's this place called sky with big scary monsters in it! I'm buying this!"

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FFXIV without HNMs is like christmas without cookies:

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If you were one of the elite, high end players that played this content, yes. Otherwise, no.

Although the actual fights themselves were fun, what you had to go through to be able to experience them was like cookies with diarrhea poured all over them.

There's a reason why most major bosses in FFXI aren't world spawns anymore.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes. Absolutely zero.

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This is you saying that HNM's had no popularity.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

HNMs were a part of the game, and they were something that some of the most advanced players in the game enjoyed

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This is you nullifying your prior statement. Whether or not you want to admit/believe it, HNM's were very popular. In some cases on the more crowded servers there would be in upwards of 100 at each camp. And you say advanced players... What do you think people aspire to be in MMO's? The greater majority of people who play MMO's would eventually like to get to the "Upper Tier", and slay those massive monsters with friends, or work on finally clearing that instanced dungeon.

Even more, Notorious Monsters are easily one of the biggest parts of FFXI (arguably the biggest). There are so many forms of NM/HNM's, and each and every one of them are liked by a certain crowd.

You had your ground HNM (Ground Kings/21-24hour spawn)

Small time World NM's (leaping lizzy, Valkurm Em, etc)

Forced pop HNM's (sky, sea, etc)

ZNM (Zeni Notorious Monsters)

Instanced HNM's (Nyzul, Assault, Salvage, Dynamis etc)

The fact that you would say that no one had any interest in HNM/NM's, is simply ignorant.

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This is you saying that HNM's had no popularity.

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No, this is me saying that they were not a reason for purchase, a selling point of the game. But yes, for all intents and purposes, their popularity is and was limited. Not everybody got to do this. Hell, the majority of players in any MMO don't even reach the maximum level, much less get to do endgame content. You don't seem to understand this fact. For World of Warcraft, for instance, something like 75% of characters don't even reach level 10. HNMs weren't even popular among all high level players, many preferring to do quests, dynamis, assaults, etc or regular NMs. VERY FEW people actually got to do participate in HNMs on a regular basis.

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This is you nullifying your prior statement.

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No, that doesn't nullify my statement. "Advanced players" is not everyone or a majority of people. It's a small number of people- like the top 1-5% of players.

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The fact that you would say that no one had any interest in HNM/NM's, is simply ignorant.

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There is a MASSIVE difference between "no one" and a small number of people. You are the ignorant one, as you can't even read my post correctly.

What people are asking for in this thread is WORLD SPAWN HNMs. I'm tottally cool and fine with instanced fights and force pops. I'm NOT fine with multi-day repops, spawn windows, or any kind of HNM where different linkshells/guilds/groups of people must compete for claim.

In FFXI, "HNM" usually refers to monsters like the following: Fafnir/Nidhogg, Adamantoise/Aspidochelone, Behemoth/King Behemoth, Vrtra/Jormungand/Tiamat, Hydra/Khimaria/Cerberus, etc. All of these monsters are 24hr or longer spawns, with lengthy spawn windows forcing people to camp for hours. All of these monsters generally had multiple linkshells all accuisng eahcother of botting and cheating to get the pull. This aspect of HNM certainly wasn't popular with anyone who didn't have a bot.

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Originally Posted by Yves

By that logic we should remove all references to FFXI. All the jobs should be cast aside and we should have unique classes like Conjurer and Thaumaturge. Oh wait - they did that and people had a conniption fit. Maybe you should rephrase what you mean more clearly and say "I did not like this aspect and disagree it should be implemented in the game for xyz."

Also, by your initial statement, it appears you would be fine if the items were non-essential, is that correct?

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Again stop pretending that this game failed because it tried to be different it failed because it was rushed to launch, the servers were/are crap, the UI was/is unresponsive.

It certainly isn't because of the names of classes. LOL's

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

I guess I need to explain in more detail. Lets say of the aforementioned items, there is a 5% drop rate, and 1% drop rate on Defending ring. You can kill for weeks and weeks, and months and maybe only see a couple of each.

If the NM's dropped an equal amount of tokens every kill, you would be able to work at getting the items you are interested in without dealing with horrid drop rates. You would also not feel that pang of despair every time you killed the NM without drops, because with tokens there would be a set amount that would drop every kill. It would be up to your LS to split tokens equally each kill, or they could just go to a designated person, etc.

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This is somewhat what we have been asking for from Primal battles and it has been met with a 50/50 split, I wouldn't expect to see a token system for open world NM's if we can't get it for instanced ones.

I,m 100% behind the idea of HNM in xiv, let the ppl that want no part of HNM stick to their instanced dungeons that they cling to so adamantly. I liked how bcnm, ksnm, znm, were implemented in xi, I dont how ever like the idea of tokens for drops from a HNM to buy a piece of gear. What i cant even understand is why no one like the idea of competition on HNM or anything for that matter.

Its just my opinion but bring back HNM Xi style and let anyone who wants to participate have at it and those that dont can do w/e it is they want instanced dungeons, primals w/e they fell like doing. Hell bring back bcnm ksnm znm while we are at it. Just cause its HNM doesnt mean that they will be forced to participate in it.

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I liked how bcnm, ksnm, znm, were implemented in xi

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funny how you complain about instanced content when 2 of these 3 are instanced content and you say you liked them...

ZNM are not HNM (well, until the final tier...), nor are BCNM or KSNMs...

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What i cant even understand is why no one like the idea of competition on HNM or anything for that matter.

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Because it's NOT FUN. In no small part because it usually leads to some kind of cheating. I do NOT like the idea of going out to kill some HNM, sitting there waiting for 3 hours for it to pop, only to have some linkshell with a bot claim the monster before it even appears on anyone else's screen. How could you find that to be fun unless you were the one doing the botting? Then there was the constant interruptions to other activities- I can't tell you how many times I had planned an activity with some LS members, like a week in advance, only to have it cancelled by the 7th day of fafnir or some other HNM that MIGHT pop "HQ."

If you can't understand why it's not fun, then you were more than likely part of a linkshell that botted or cheated.

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Its just my opinion but bring back HNM Xi style

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It's not worth their time to develop content that only 100 out of 10-20,000 people will want to play.

Big scary need your wits and a good size group of people to beat bosses are fine. I want more of those. I do NOT want them open world. Force pop or instanced only, unless repop times are low.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, this is me saying that they were not a reason for purchase, a selling point of the game. But yes, for all intents and purposes, their popularity is and was limited. Not everybody got to do this. Hell, the majority of players in any MMO don't even reach the maximum level, much less get to do endgame content. You don't seem to understand this fact. For World of Warcraft, for instance, something like 75% of characters don't even reach level 10. HNMs weren't even popular among all high level players, many preferring to do quests, dynamis, assaults, etc or regular NMs. VERY FEW people actually got to do participate in HNMs on a regular basis.

No, that doesn't nullify my statement. "Advanced players" is not everyone or a majority of people. It's a small number of people- like the top 1-5% of players.

There is a MASSIVE difference between "no one" and a small number of people. You are the ignorant one, as you can't even read my post correctly.

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I don't think you actually played FFXI, or WoW. I however, played both.

75% of people didn't get past level 10? Tell me Lodestone Official Forums, how long does it take for one to get to level 10 in WoW (less than a couple of hours).

I want you to log into FFXI (if you have it), and do a "/sea all" command, tell me what you see in terms of level's. Please respond with how many people you see at max level. Furthermore I would ask you to do a percentage of people below 99, and people at 99, this way we can get a good feel at the comparison between people at max level, and people who aren't. (we wont even consider the fact that most of them have multiple 99's. (I am going to make an assumption and say that 75%+ are at maximum level).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, that doesn't nullify my statement. "Advanced players" is not everyone or a majority of people. It's a small number of people- like the top 1-5% of players.

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I'm not sure if you are being serious here. If you think that in FFXI, only 1-5% of the community participated in endgame content..

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is a MASSIVE difference between "no one" and a small number of people. You are the ignorant one, as you can't even read my post correctly.

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Define a small amount of people sir. Because I think alot more than a "small" amount of people are interested in HNM's.

When it comes to ignorant, I guess making a collaborative thread with ideas about the hopeful implementation of a beloved aspect of prior SE MMO's; Which contains over 500 replies, 12000+ views, and 129 personal likes, is ignorant?

Rather, I think coming into that thread, and trying to argue the point that no one is interested in said content.. that sir, is ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

ZNM are not HNM, nor are BCNM or KSNMs...

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They are all Notorious Monsters.....

Zeni Notorious Monster
Burning Circle Notorious Monster
Kindred Seal Notorious Monster...

We want all of these, not just the open-world aspect. Please read before posting.

FFXI's long re-spawn timers lead to a problem of people negating their real world responsibilities in order to camp a long spawn NM. Hence the desire to claim an NM's would often lead to people not attending work, school, or social activities. This must be avoided with XIV.

I never botted in any form but the fact that you are against every bit of these ideas proves that you must have sucked at XI or had no friends. I only did HNM just a brief bit but rl came before it, but i wouldnt dare deprive someone that wants likes or might enjoy it just because i couldnt do it as much as i wanted to. And btw i know bcnm and such were instanced and i loved to do them i never complained about instances. I simply just said let the ppl that want to stay with dungeons stay with them and leave the rest of us alone with for wish for HNM, or would you rather there be Anti instance thread started so you might have a chance to make a real point about anything.

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I don't think you actually played FFXI, or WoW. I however, played both.

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Yeah, you're funny. I played FFXI since day 1. My account is still active. I played WoW for a few years after it came out (and quit because it was boring as hell and the endgame community was 10x more oppressive than FFXIs was.

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If you think that in FFXI, only 1-5% of the community participated in endgame content..

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I don't think it, I know it. Because it's a fact- a fact of virtually all MMOs. The VAST MAJORITY of players do NOT end up experieincing such superbosses that we call HNMs.

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They are all Notorious Monsters.....

Zeni Notorious Monster
Burning Circle Notorious Monster
Kindred Seal Notorious Monster...

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This thread is asking for Highly Notorious Monsters. Not BCNMs and KSNMs. Did you not read the title of this thread????
I'd LOVE to have BCNMs. I would NOT love to have world spawn HNMs.

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Define a small amount of people sir. Because I think alot more than a "small" amount of people are interested in HNM's.

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You think wrong, my good sir. FFXIV likely has a higher percentage than the average because of how small the playerbase is (and the dedication level of those that currently remain). But it's still far from something everyone wants to participate in or even a majority.

Let's make it big, bold and clear. I'm ONLY, ONLY ONLY ONLY talking about world spawn HNMs. world spawn HNMs does NOT include instanced boss battles (KSNM, BCNM, ENM etc), nor does it include the majority of force pop content. If you can't understand what I'm talking about after this post, you never will and you may as well stop responding because we're going to be talking in circles forever.

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I never botted in any form but the fact that you are against every bit of these ideas proves that you must have sucked at XI or had no friends.

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No, it doesn't prove that, however your post likely proves that for you, because of how rude and insulting you're being.

I was part of a major HNM linkshell for many years, and fought nearly every HNM in the game before Voidwatch with the exception of Pandy Warden and Dark Ixion. We were all legitimate players and most of us had eventually quit because we were sick of how rampant the botting got. Think before you insult, please and thank you.

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I only did HNM just a brief bit but rl came before it,

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What HNM did YOU do? List them specifically, thanks.

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75% of people didn't get past level 10? Tell me Lodestone Official Forums, how long does it take for one to get to level 10 in WoW (less than a couple of hours).

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This is completely true and there was an article written on it somewhere. Yes, even though it might only take an hour or two to reach level 10, the vast majority characters created in the game never reached that level. There's something called a conversion rate in MMOs. It's the rate at which people actually subscribe and continue playing past the free trial.

25% is actually a very good conversion rate in the industry. You have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I don't think it, I know it. Because it's a fact- a fact of virtually all MMOs. The VAST MAJORITY of players do NOT end up experieincing such superbosses that we call HNMs.

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That's unfortunate for them, but the ones of us who worked hard, and got to that point really enjoyed it! Also, please don't call "facts" without being able to prove them. You have absolutely no idea what the exact range of numbers/percentages of the population were involved with end-game HNM content. Your assumptious numbers, do not equal facts.

Just because some people aren't cut out for it, and like to make up reasons, and also make up facts about how bad the system is that they don't like, is no reason to prohibit the playerbase that loves the content from experiencing it.

And we are not just talking about Open-World HNM content. Yes, the Title is highly notorious monsters, but we have branched out into all aspects of notorious monsters.

I will tell you what I have told the handful of others like you:

If you don't want to camp the HNM's, don't. However, the rest of us will. Hopefully there will be enough content in the post-2.0 FFXIV that you will be able to choose.

Fafnir/Nidhogg Jorgoumand Vrta Serket KB/B Sandworm Ixion, Sky,Sea, Cerb Khimara Hydra and even though you dont count them as HNM Proto Omega/Ultima, Sadly never seen Dyna Lord.

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Just because some people aren't cut out for it, and like to make up reasons, and also make up facts about how bad the system

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We don't make up reasons. They're valid, good reasons, and the facts are real facts, not made up.

FFXI's HNM system (again. ONLY HNMs. NOT BCNMS KSNMS ETC!!!!) was terribad. We kept doing it because we wanted the drops badly enough to keep at it, not because it was fun battling cheaters to get the claim on the monster.

BCNMs and the like are a completely seperate topic. I'd love to have those, lots and lots of them. The only thing I'm against is HNMs that are world spawns with long repop timers. Rewards from content should be rare because the content is challenging, not because you have to wait a million years just to get to experience the fight one time.

World spawning HNMs would be tolerable if they spawned frequently enough that you didn't have 100 people packed in a fishbowl all mashing provoke as hard as they can for 2 minutes every 30 minutes. But I'd still rather do BCNM/force pop content.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

We don't make up reasons. They're valid, good reasons, and the facts are real facts, not made up.

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Please post documentation that will validate your claims. Until then they remain your assumptions.

Also, we kept at it. That aspect, in and of itself kept many, many people out there on the HNM scene. I'm not saying I liked the timers (we dont wan't any more long respawn timers), but it kept people subscribed, and in game.

During Zilart, which primarily was SKY/HNM/Dynamis for endgame, there were a little over 200,000 people subbed (this was late 2004). Players leveled up, geared themselves adequately enough so that they could work their way into that content.

Comparitively, FFXIV has around 10-12,000 subscriptions. Seems like they were doing something right in their prior MMO.

Can you honestly tell me that HNM's would hurt FFXIV's chance for future success?

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Can you honestly tell me that HNM's would hurt FFXIV's chance for future success?

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Hurt? No. But their impact on the game as far as attracting new customers and getting people to play and keep playing will be minimal at best.

The number of people that will play HNMs, regardless of how good or bad they are, is not going to be high compared to the total playerbase. Their ability to influence the game as a whole will be limited in either direction.

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During Zilart, which primarily was SKY/HNM/Dynamis for endgame, there were a little over 200,000 people subbed (this was late 2004).

Comparitively, FFXIV has around 10-12,000 subscriptions. Seems like they were doing something right in their prior MMO.

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You're right- but that "something" that was right was a lot of things, it wasn't just or even mostly HNMs. Please, quit pretending that HNMs were the sole/primary reason that hundreds of thousands of people played FFXI. If that were true, there would have been 1000 people in the dragon's aery every fafnir pop instead of 100-200.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

FFXI's HNM system (again. ONLY HNMs. NOT BCNMS KSNMS ETC!!!!) was terribad. We kept doing it because we wanted the drops badly enough to keep at it, not because it was fun.

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The implementation of FFXI HNM system wasn't the best. It encouraged botting and required standing at one spot for hours spamming one ability every 30 mins or so.

However, bringing open world (H)NMs in XIV doesn't have to mean implementing them exactly the same way they were in XI. There can be open world HNMs you can't really camp because their pop conditions are so random, for example. But when you do see one, it's such a rare occasion that you will feel really excited and hurry to gather your linkshell to kill it.

I guess if you don't like any competition of any kind between player groups, I can understand why you don't like the idea of open world HNMs. But does that mean other players shouldn't have them either? Personally, I can't stand PvP and was really against implementing it in XIV, but now I just think let others have their thing and I'll do something I'm more into. Not all content has to be for everyone, but the more variety the better, in my opinion.

I wasn't a HNM player in XI (nor will I be one in XIV). That didn't mean I didn't want them to exist. As I've previously stated, I feel open world HNMs (and other open world content) would make the game world feel more alive.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Hurt? No. But their impact on the game as far as attracting new customers and getting people to play and keep playing will be minimal at best.

The number of people that will play HNMs, regardless of how good or bad they are, is not going to be high compared to the total playerbase. Their ability to influence the game as a whole will be limited in either direction.

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Well sir, I think I speak for many here when I say that I am sorry that you feel the way you do. I appreciate your opinions, and hopefully you enjoy your time in FFXIV, regardless of what kind of content is implemented.

Rather than have us compare our opinions for the next couple of pages, I would like to re-direct the thread back to the topic, of which is HNM's and their possible implementation.

I edited the OP with the "Token" system, which would alleviate some issues with low/horrid drop rates, and would cater more towards the "Work=Reward" type system.

Any additional ideas/opinions are welcome.