Moving will be made to interrupt spellcasting at a point in time...

I am ok with this, ONLY, if the other damn actions did not lock your movement.

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Originally Posted by Shyd

I am ok with this, ONLY, if the other damn actions did not lock your movement.

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That's another thing that's been asked for quite some time, and I'm sure in due time the majority of them if not all will receive the same treatment the Active/Passive mode thing did, i.e. allowing us to perform it while moving, even if with a small slowdown.
Doubt this will happen before 2.0 tho

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

I don't see how you could get to those conclusions.
WoW has one of the most competitively-driven (e-sports like) PvP, which receives a lot of attention with international and local tournaments, and yet despite all of this attention, the game and the player base clearly focus more on PvE.
Still, a lot of people don't care for PvE and play the game only for PvP, and vice-versa, and then there are those who enjoy both parts.

In a japanese game like FFXIV, with developers who have a certain mindset and an user-base which also has a pretty clear mindset, it seems kinda obvious to me that even if FFXIV will have a much deeper and more deployed PvP system compared to FFXI's Brenner and Ballista, it will still be a secondary thing compared to the plethora of PvE activities the game will offer to its playerbase.

Also, I don't have numbers in my mind atm, but at least the majority of MMO I can think of atm all have pretty different mechanics for PvP and PvE. WoW is one of the few who uses almost the same mechanics for PvE and PvP, at least when it comes to spells/actions (just a bunch of them are adjusted for PvP).

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....Blizzard alone is notorious for balancing their MMO and online games towards PvP play. If you try to focus on PvE in WoW after a PvP based updated, do you not notice how PvE gets extremely unbalanced in the process? So you did kind of prove her point that MMOs with strong PvP the balance is always tipped in favor of it rather than PvE, so people who enjoy PvE gets to enjoy shitty PvE content that's extremely unbalanced while they sit around trying to perfect PvP, something you may not care for.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

It's not the only reason -- It's being balanced overall because unlike other MMO devs, they're not going to separate the game which will then start tipping one way or the other

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It is much more difficult to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time (=them using the same system) than balancing them separately.

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MMO balance is always tipped towards PvP and not everyone wants to do PvP if they want to enjoy the game.

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I agree, this is why separating those 2 parts is the only way i see to not break the balance between those 2 sides of the game.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

....Blizzard alone is notorious for balancing their MMO and online games towards PvP play.

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"Notorious" according to who exactely? Are you trying to express and share your own opinion? That's fine, I disagree but respect your opinion.
Or are you trying to say that's a commonly shared opinion everywhere and that everybody would say the same? Because in that case I would have to disagree again.

Btw, if it helps you in any way, I've been playing (and still play) WoW 'till patch 1.6 (altough I played a bit of beta too).

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

"Notorious" according to who exactely?

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Anyone who plays the game and have played it all through 2004, even though in Cata they're not as bad about it, but it's not exactly unknown to gamers Blizzard isn't good at balancing PvE and PvP.

The fact they're not "good" is debateable but I could very easily agree with that, at least to a certain extent.
But saying that is very different from saying "PVE experience gets ruined because all Blizzard cares for is balancing things for PVP consequentially breaking it for PVE".

That would be a very shortsighted opinion coming from someone who mainly cared for PVP, got burned, and never really cared that much to play PVE at high levels.

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Originally Posted by Shyd

I am ok with this, ONLY, if the other damn actions did not lock your movement.

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Agreed, specifically in reference to Ifrit (although this would probably apply to other similar instanced battles in the future) it would make it nigh impossible to Cure or Nuke on a consistent basis where your constantly moving about to avoid Eruptions and the occasional Plume without taking serious risks. Taking into consideration of coming to a full stop, lag compensation between the client and the server, beginning animation lock, ending animation lock, and the spells cast time it likely would take a few more seconds to cast each spell successfully. That's not considering the time lost when a spell is cancelled from premature casting due to client/server lag, and the potential dangers animation lock already poses once a spell gets past the point of no return. I might be just over-analyzing though.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

PvP is just gonna lead to everyone calling a class cheap and be nerfed.

Black Mage will get a big nerf, calling it right now.

"Wahhhh this black mage just hits me with Blizzara, to hit me with gravity."

"BLack Mage's combos are too powerful and almost kill me in one combo, nerf it."

I hate pvp, I will never do it/use it. But there will be lots of people who will complain and ask for jobs to be nerfed. it always happens. Frankly, I am tired of that bull shit. If this could be done it needs to be done like this: make pvp zones change the playstyle, like movement canceling, like an instance.

Soloing, I don't see a problem with how it is now. It's strategy and timing with a hint of luck (possible resists)

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Absolutely. PvP has destroed and ruined MMOs since they started trying to put PvP in MMOs.

Im all for movemenet interrupting spellcasting, that being said I agree with Jinrya-Geki and hope that PVP doesn't destroy this games PVE balance like it does in other games.

I'm not a fan of spell casting being interupted by monsters though, espeically if its going to be 100%.

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PvP issues did not influence his decision on how solo and party playstyles will work.

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Reading his post most of it is regarding PVP though, it definately comes across that the decision was made based mostly with that in mind if you ask me. (perhaps you interpreted it differently though)

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Originally Posted by Clair

Where are you and other people reading that this is only because of PvP? Am I hallucinating? Did I not read this



before any mention of PvP was uttered? Is this somehow not a valid issue to the point where people can blindly state PvP is the sole reason casting while moving isn't happening going forward?

What is the oh so simple solution to the above problem that somehow still means PvP (and only PvP) is going to "ruin" the game? Can someone tell me?

You and everyone else is not going to use PvP as a scapegoat and manage to convince Yoshida to think differently on this if you so conveniently completely ignore the issues for solo and party play he's raised.

This is how he wants mages to play. He mentioned solo play, party play and PvP. PvP issues did not influence his decision on how solo and party playstyles will work. If you people actually read what he wrote you would know this (it's even separated into three different parts for easy reading: Image of Casters for Solo Play, Image of Casters for Party Play and then the PvP blurb. But apparently you guys don't have the parts about solo or party play at all? That's so weird!)

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Because it's going to be PvP that will cause Disciples of Magic to be gimped further.

I don't like this. Keep it the same; just fix it so we can actually cancel spells when necessary. As it stands even if moving cancelled a spell I bet we would still be in animation lock because we didn't move "early" enough to cancel the spell. If I can talk on the phone and jog at the same time I should be able to use magic and run at the same time as well. Maybe they should have just increased cast time while moving?

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Originally Posted by Clair

Is this somehow not a valid issue to the point where people can blindly state PvP is the sole reason casting while moving isn't happening going forward?

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That "issue" can be solved by simply making you cancel a cast once you disengage or press the Esc/cancel button once, instead of having to press the same skill again as it is now, which would make things more intuitive, at least from my perspective.

So yes, other than that, his only reason is PvP.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

Just give a Paladin in PvP a Jump Pack skill that instantly closes short distance.

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Don't hate on my Bounty Hunt, er, Paladin. :D

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Reading his post most of it is regarding PVP though

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no it isn't a majority of it has nothing to do with PvP.

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Originally Posted by Clair

Yet FFXI constantly made PvP changes that only affected PvP (Ballista) without touching the rest of the game? And that has nothing to do with casting while moving or the fact that people are using PvP as a scapegoat. How does saying "Screw PvP urrgh I hate it" solve the issues of solo and party play Yoshida brought up?

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Party wise- his example is not the best. That is more of the situation, the caster is a jerk for nuking fast and hard.

Solo, should be a kite strategy. That should be left alone. ONE mistake kiting something and you could die.

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Originally Posted by Clair

What are you even talking about now? His "issue" that you seem incapable of grasping is mages casting spells while running and never getting hit while a bunch of melees whack on it. Take no damage because the monster can't hit the mage with hate and deal more damage because melees and the mage are constantly attacking it without stopping.

Your "solution" is to make it easier to cancel spells? Why would a mage want to do that when they're exploiting the game mechanics?

This has nothing to do with making the game more playable, it's about exploits. Stop talking nonsense and blaming PvP for something you didn't even read.

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No that is not an exploit.

This would be an exploit. EQOA you could stick your character between thorns in a giant cactus and hit a mob. But to the mob it registers as a wall and can't attack the player.

Running around still gives you an opportunity to be hit.

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Originally Posted by Clair

His "issue" that you seem incapable of grasping is mages casting spells while running and never getting hit while a bunch of melees whack on it. Take no damage because the monster can't hit the mage with hate and deal more damage because melees and the mage are constantly attacking it without stopping.

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Movement cancelling spells won't magically solve that problem, you will still be able to nuke them, move, nuke again, never getting hit if both you and your tank can balance the enmity. Oh wait, that sounds exactly like what he is describing!

In fact, you don't even HAVE to move! Just don't nuke too hard. I don't see the issue or the "abuse" of game mechanics.

So I guess a bunch of RDM in FFXI were exploiting the game and should have been banned. Should ban BLM too in that while you are at it. They can outrun monsters too. So are we supposed to sit and let a monster kill us? I don't understand. Since when has kiting a monster been "exploiting"?

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Originally Posted by Clair

You and everyone else is not going to use PvP as a scapegoat and manage to convince Yoshida to think differently on this if you so conveniently completely ignore the issues for solo and party play he's raised.

This is how he wants mages to play. He mentioned solo play, party play and PvP. PvP issues did not influence his decision on how solo and party playstyles will work. If you people actually read what he wrote you would know this (it's even separated into three different parts for easy reading: Image of Casters for Solo Play, Image of Casters for Party Play and then the PvP blurb. But apparently you guys don't have the parts about solo or party play at all? That's so weird!)

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The example you stated is a non-existent reason. Kiting (even has a name) is a perfectly acceptable form of strategy... unless you are trying to lock people down to a certain style of play. Namely tank, DD, healer (holy trinity). Which I gather is what he is doing.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

My philosophy for game design, not only for FFXIV, but for all games in general, is that doing everything innovatively, originally or with a novel approach does not always work. As a result, there was no party play strategy involved in FFXIV at the time of its release, which led to disappointment due to players being unable to feel comfortable with the game.

When FFXIV 2.0 is closer to launch, many players may consider switching over to FFXIV from other MMORPGs. As such, I believe it is my responsibility as the producer to provide comfort and stability for players switching over to FFXIV. I also need to think of ways for a whole guild to be able to transfer over to FFXIV with ease…

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Which I take to mean Yoshi-P is making a game fundamentally like any other. He's not making something that would stand out from the rest. Final Fantasy, a game series that has always stood out from the rest in my eyes. Yes, I expected more. I expected a game that breaks norms, not one that glosses over what has already been done. Just because the original FFXIV didn't pull it together enough, doesn't mean the whole thing was bad.

Talking specifically about the change... the last thing I want, is to be pigeonholed into a specific style of play. I don't want to have my hand held, or be told to play my mage this way because that's how it's designed, or to have the developers design of the classes and the game hampered by PvP. I want the freedom to come up with innovative ways to win a battle. The original game had too much freedom I guess. So instead we are doing a 180? I don't believe it was necessary.

I came to this game looking for something different, so yes, I am dissapointed.

That is my feelings, I'm sorry they are a little strong right now.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

So I guess a bunch of RDM in FFXI were exploiting the game and should have been banned. Should ban BLM too in that while you are at it. They can outrun monsters too. So are we supposed to sit and let a monster kill us? I don't understand. Since when has kiting a monster been "exploiting"?

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You didn't read what he said now did you?

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Originally Posted by Clair

Spell canceling while moving is for un-intended playstyles that can trivialise content by making it too easy. If you are going by their intended playstyle then duh, of course there's no issue...

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The un-intended playstyle being making use of the range of a ranged class? Come on! If a ranged class isn't allowed to kite then why have ranged classes at all?

Also, with how the current game behaves, you can be miles away and still get hit by a melee attack. Just try getting one of the harder nodes and you'll see what i mean. I don't see them fixing that, so the issue of ranged classes never getting hit won't arise.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

You didn't read what he said now did you?

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Originally Posted by Clair

What are you even talking about now? His "issue" that you seem incapable of grasping is mages casting spells while running and never getting hit while a bunch of melees whack on it. Take no damage because the monster can't hit the mage with hate and deal more damage because melees and the mage are constantly attacking it without stopping.

Your "solution" is to make it easier to cancel spells? Why would a mage want to do that when they're exploiting the game mechanics?

This has nothing to do with making the game more playable, it's about exploits. Stop talking nonsense and blaming PvP for something you didn't even read.

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how2readpl0x

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Originally Posted by Clair

You are not allowed to kite forever without fear of ever being damaged while dealing your maximum damage at the same time.

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That is exactly how the game behaves now. Melee attacks hit you from miles away = you can't kite indefinitely without taking damage.
What's the difference? I give up.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

I'm kind of torn about this..on one hand, it's nice I'm able to cancel spellcasting with just one step to the left, right or elsewhere.
But on the other hand, it's horrible to not be able to cast while running anymore!:(

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It was really nice in multi-stage leves. Being able to deliver the last blow to the fleeing mob before he reached the second stage spawn point was a big help.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Everytime Yoshi posts something like this it seems like FFXIV is the first mmo ever developed.

There are mmos with both pvp and mages that can cast while running, still a good meele can kick their asses. the pvp/kiting thing isn't an argument valid enough. Also, the whole "let's make veterans mmo players comfortable" thing sounds like a joke, as well as the "sometimes innovation is a bad thing" argument, which to me was more something like "let's just work on an safe ground so we don't screw everything up".

Tho it is a fact that the whole combat system in XIV is taking a "dynamic" route. In most of the exp parties you have to be constantly moving, in DH as a mage you're running and healing most of the time and even during the fights you have to move, Ifrit's fight is all about dodging and in Moggle's fight if you stand still you're dead.

I'm not gonna say that this is a terrible design choice since it all depends on how it is implemented and on the future skills, but IMHO it would have been much more appreciated if instead of some random talking about the mages' role in mmos that basically says nothing he spoke about how they're planning to handle current and future dynamic encounters and the inability of casting while running.




Can you guys please stop saying that everything has been already decided and can't be changed?
Remember one year ago? the whole game was already planned and it was totally different from what we are playing now and these changings started with someone's QQ.

Everything is in discussion here and our opinions do matter.

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List all the MMO's that allow casting while running.

And started with someone's QQing. The game was a fail because people were actually playing it. You have not played with this yet on this game, nor have you played it with 2.0 combat and adjustments.

There is differences between opinions and whining, and all I see is whining lately with this one topic. Did you not read his long post? I'm pretty sure it's set in stone with all that he wrote.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

List all the MMO's that allow casting while running.

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There's one thing that I want to put there, Allods Online. Yea yea F2P sucks, but they actually have a working combat system with Stamina and casting while running, one that FFXIV should have at the beginning, and could had changed into.

Then Anarchy Online, that one is older even than FFXI. NT kite ftw.

If you guys read the road map you would know pvp is gonna have its own set of skills so it wont mess with PvE.....

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

List all the MMO's that allow casting while running.

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The first one i can think about is aion, you wasn't actually casting, but you had instant spells with quite long animations and no animation lock. Wich isn't much different from casting while moving with animation lock.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

And started with someone's QQing. The game was a fail because people were actually playing it. You have not played with this yet on this game, nor have you played it with 2.0 combat and adjustments.

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I'm not defending the first version here, but when the QQ started the average player's level was 10... do you really think they knew everything about Tanaka's vision? The main flaw of FFXIV was that it was released way too soon (except for some server and engine issues), as far as we know when Tanaka was done with his development process the game might have been awsome. But that's OT.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

There is differences between opinions and whining, and all I see is whining lately with this one topic. Did you not read his long post? I'm pretty sure it's set in stone with all that he wrote.

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Actually I didn't see any whining here, just valid discussions with pros and cons from both sides. I myself didn't say it's a bad idea per se, just asked for clarifications reguarding the whole combat flow.
The only QQ I read in this topic are like "wtf shut up already and let them do whatever they want, your opinion is bs."

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Originally Posted by Clair

Which game allows you to kite and never take damage while dealing the same amount of damage you're capable of while standing perfectly still? Tanks can kite but they do so by getting enmity and using defensive buffs. Not dealing damage. A BLM kiting means there's now no need for a tank at all, you ARE the tank AND the DD at the same time. That isn't balanced.

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You cannot currently kite and deal damage fluidly, as you have to stop and actually cast the spell, leaving yourself easily open to be caught up to and hit. Change nothing about that, and it would work fine. I'm sure other ways can be thought of to offset it.

This change primarily has to do with PvP, secondarily with making more "defined" party roles. I object to both reasons.

If it doesn't matter to you, then you really have no reason to argue.

/cheer Yoshida-san

EQOA, Age of Conan, DCU, WoW, Cabal.

Those are the MMOs that I have played where you can move and cast.

Get rid of animation lock, and allow casting while moving, at least SOME spells. The end. Anything less is going to result in a sub par game compared to other games where you party + move.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

The first one i can think about is aion, you wasn't actually casting, but you had instant spells with quite long animations and no animation lock. Wich isn't much different from casting while moving with animation lock.



I'm not defending the first version here, but when the QQ started the average player's level was 10... do you really think they knew everything about Tanaka's vision? The main flaw of FFXIV was that it was released way too soon (except for some server and engine issues), as far as we know when Tanaka was done with his development process the game might have been awsome. But that's OT.



Actually I didn't see any whining here, just valid discussions with pros and cons from both sides. I myself didn't say it's a bad idea per se, just asked for clarifications reguarding the whole combat flow.
The only QQ I read in this topic are like "wtf shut up already and let them do whatever they want, your opinion is bs."

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I didn't say your opinion is bullshit. I pretty much said it's a lost cause. It's set in stone.

Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

EQOA, Age of Conan, DCU, WoW, Cabal.

Those are the MMOs that I have played where you can move and cast.

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I don't know about the other games you listed here, but you could NOT move while casting in WoW. There are instant cast abilities that could be used while moving, just like Yoshi is planning on having in FFXIV.

WoW didn't have spell interrupt it had spell push back so standing still wasn't as bad as it is in this game and the instant cast spells didn't stop you from moving.

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Originally Posted by Anon

WoW didn't have spell interrupt it had spell push back so standing still wasn't as bad as it is in this game and the instant cast spells didn't stop you from moving.

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That's true, so maybe we should be asking for spell push back rather than interrupt while taking damage.

Instant cast spells won't stop you from moving once animation lock is removed. Hopefully that happens before 2.0, but I wouldn't count on it.

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Originally Posted by Clair

Because of animation locks which I've already addressed to another person in this thread. i.e. in the last page or two, think you could possibly read through that?

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You made that post while I was making the other, so no, I did not read it. Your posts come across as extremely rude, so believe it or not I am not going out of my way to read them.

I can't say I'd personally want the "animation lock" taken out either. I find timing them part of the play. But I can see why it would be lucrative to others, and it's not a big deal to me. In any case, it still wouldn't matter, because as I said, you can find other ways to keep things in check.

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Doesn't matter, he's chosen this

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I have never argued this point.

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Funny how he started off with "Image of Casters for Party Play" in big bold writing and then "Image of Casters for Party Play" yet didn't even make a similar header for "Image of Casters for PvP". Yet somehow that's the main reason for this change? And he made those big headers for the secondary reasons? Absolutely fascinating how you know so much about Yoshida's inner thought process, apparently even more than he does!

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Which is a classic PR tactic. Deflect the controversial with something less controversial. PvP affecting PvE was a pretty big and sore point made when PvP was first announced. I should know, I was part of the "discussion." :)

I don't pretend to know Yoshi-P's mind, but I know he is in a leadership position, and must act accordingly. I also know better than to take PR at face value. Whether you believe me or not, my reading comprehension is actually pretty good.

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I object to people bringing out nonsense saying somehow this change is the result of PvP first and foremost. Explain how that is when he's given examples for solo and party play where the same problem, running while casting, will cause issues in the future. I would like to hear how those two points he brought up aren't valid, and somehow the PvP reason is the main reason for this change.

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Ok then, but you're making this a bigger issue than I ever would have made of it.

I am not, nor was I ever, arguing whether or not it will cause issues in his envisioned future. I stated that the only reason it would cause balance issues for PvE is if he is trying to, and I quote, lock people down to a certain style of play. PvP cannot have casting movement (boy can I imagine the balance issues). PvE can have casting movement, like it does now, it merely need be designed to do so. Therefore, it's for PvP, and secondarily for "defined" party roles.

From his article I gather that he is balancing FFXIV in a very traditional, bland, boring way (imo). I do not want traditional, tank and spank, holy trinity style play. I would love to heal a mage kiting for tank. I do currently love doing some DD while healing, and always have since my first days of playing mmos. You think balance, I think walls. I want to play outside the box. That is what the original FFXIV had going for it, and I liked it.

You can keep arguing with me if you like, but treating me like I am a baseless idiot who doesn't know how to read or her own mind isn't going make me sympathetic to hear your thoughts on the subject. You seem to want me to think Yoshi-P is right, when I have never argued whether he was right or wrong, just how his latest revealed direction goes against what I want to see in the game in a big way.

To everyone else out there, I'm sorry I'm repeating myself. Here have some popcorn.
/popcorn

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Originally Posted by Steggun

That's true, so maybe we should be asking for spell push back rather than interrupt while taking damage.

Instant cast spells won't stop you from moving once animation lock is removed. Hopefully that happens before 2.0, but I wouldn't count on it.

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Asking for spell push back would be a good idea.
Have they said they're removing spell lock? I haven't seen them say so. ><

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Originally Posted by Clair

But so as long as everyone knows you pulled that assumption falsely labeled as a fact out of thin air, I have no more business with you.

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On this one thing, I agree. I have stated my points twice or more. If you choose not to comprehend them, I can't help you.

Good day. :)