Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

First rule of being a good dps: Striking dummies mean nothing. DPS always looks different on an actual boss. :P

EDIT: You really have no idea what you are talking about, lol

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Depends on the boss :P turn 8, 100% uptime, it is a striking dummy for MNK XD But yeah, dummy is to practice rotations, get muscle memory down.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

If you think i90 doing 200 on a striking dummy isn't possible? Wow, you must know absolutely terrible dps.

I have a feeling he wants someone to prove him wrong just so he can go "THIS PERSON USES A PARSER, BAN HIM". He can't legitimately think it's impossible to break 200 dps on a WOD boss, let alone a striking dummy with any difficulty.

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Well, least we know now why he doesn't get invited to parties for hard content XD

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

He can't legitimately think it's impossible to break 200 dps on a WOD boss, let alone a striking dummy with any difficulty.

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The funny thing is some people do over 600 and he's acting like people can't do only a 3rd of that.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Depends on the boss :P turn 7, 100% uptime, it is a striking dummy for MNK XD But yeah, dummy is to practice rotations, get muscle memory down.

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I think you mean T8? Cursed Shriek kills stacks any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Falsely suggesting the only upgrades past 90 are extremely long grind relic weapons. Do you normally try to make a point with useless hyperbole?

1 weekly Crystal Tower Quest = Tomestone + 3 weeks of poetics = 120 weapon. In that three weeks you would easily complete the quest 2 more times and therefore have the twine to upgrade it to 130. This isn't rocket science. Your point fails, and I didn't even get into Shiva weapons for an easy 115 weapon yet.



Not a single word in those definitions had any inherently negative connotation. You are adding that with your own prejudice. However I invite you to point out the negative words there. If you actually can.

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Uhhh, I think you need to reread my comment, Mr. Sassypants. I was advising the OP that the term they should have been using this entire thread is the term "elite". Despite what they (and obviously many others in this thread) think, an elitist is vastly different from an elite player.

The line that you conveniently left out of my quoted comment would have proved useful for you to read.


As a reminder of what I actually typed:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Skip over to Elite, and you'll have the term you're looking for.

elite - per dictionary.com
1.(often used with a plural verb) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.
2.
(used with a plural verb) persons of the highest class:
Only the elite were there.
3.
a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group:
the power elite of a major political party.
4. (skipping #4 as it deal with type size. lol)
Adjective
5.
representing the most choice or select; best:
an elite group of authors.



If you honestly cannot understand the negative connotation that is associated with the term "Elitist" in the gaming community, well, I just don't know. But by all means, keep claiming to be an elitist. In reading some of your comments, perhaps you truly do belong in that class.

This whole thread is a load of rubbish.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

I think you mean T8? Cursed Shriek kills stacks any day of the week.

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Ooops totally :P Has been a while XD

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Uhhh, I think you need to reread my comment, Mr. Sassypants. I was advising the OP that the term they should have been using this entire thread is the term "elite". Despite what they (and obviously many others in this thread) think, an elitist is vastly different from an elite player.

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An elitist is just one who considers themselves elite. The OP even used the definition of elitist.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Dictionary.com: Elitist - a person or class of person considered superior by others or by themselves.

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By that definition it has no inherent negative connotation. People give it that connotation. Not the definition itself, and yet people in this very thread keep acting like he is redefining elitist. He isn't. He's using the dictionary defined usage of it where everyone with the negative connotation is not.

What I would accept is that there are multiple definitions for elitist. Some are negative, some not. No one has made that argument yet from what I can tell, but both would technically be accurate definitions. Everyone here seems to think there should be only one. This isn't the highlander.

People lose stacks every 15 seconds on a 100% uptime fight?

Ya crazy kids.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

An elitist is just one who considers themselves elite. The OP even used the definition of elitist.


By definition it has no inherent negative connotation. People give it that connotation. Not the definition itself, and yet people in this very thread keep acting like he is redefining elitist. He isn't. He's using the dictionary defined usage of it where everyone with the negative connotation is not.

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Oh bloody hell. We're going in circles here. Take a minute, and go to the dictionary.com entry for elitist. All of the examples they provide along with their definitions are negative.

Elitist:
1.
(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:
elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else.
2.
catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions:
Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.
noun
3.
a person having, thought to have, or professing superior intellect or talent, power, wealth, or membership in the upper echelons of society:
He lost a congressional race in Texas by being smeared as an Eastern elitist.
4.
a person who believes in the superiority of an elitist class.

To fully understand a word, you need to account for the context in which they are to be used. So yes, elitist and elite are still miles apart.

Anyone can make ANYTHING sound good when you start snipping out the bits you don't like. Shoot, I can make Hitler sound like a saint if I just leave out a few of those pesky details of his later years.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

So yes, elitist and elite are still miles apart.

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Never said or implied they weren't. You did however seek to correct the OP the correct term to use where the one he did use was technically very viable for the discussion at hand. Elite, as you say and I agree, should be part of the conversation though. Elite does not eliminate the context for using the word elitist and vice-versa.

However, this is literally arguing semantics, and doesn't change anything or help with the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

The only negative connotations I see in your text are the examples in which the word is used in.

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Dictionary authors aren't unbiased.

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Exactly. Agreed completely. The pure definitions themselves aren't necessarily negative, but that doesn't prevent them from being use in both negative and positive ways. It's a great example of bias to suggest one or the other in those sentence examples.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

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The only negative connotations I see in your text are the examples in which the word is used in. I see no sign that elitism is bad in the core definitions themselves - we as people associate it with a negative connotation because we've been influenced to think that way (elite = bad and everyone should be equal and all that).

Dictionary authors aren't unbiased.

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware of the connotation. Yes, it's often how I look at the word too. But try to think outside of your own beliefs, from a different perspective. Even if you don't like that perspective, you won't understand it unless you try.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

The only negative connotations I see in your text are the examples in which the word is used in. I see no sign that elitism is bad in the core definitions themselves - we as people associate it with a negative connotation because we've been influenced to think that way (elite = bad and everyone should be equal and all that).

Dictionary authors aren't unbiased.

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Fair enough with the descriptions :) But for the record, I do NOT think being elite is bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being the best at what you do. Being an elitist (per my idea of the word), is horrible.

I would say that in a gaming community, it is widely accepted that elitist is used in a negative way. Perhaps it is my own personal bias, but in my 10+ years of MMOs, I have never once heard that term used in a positive way until this thread.

I do think this thread could have gone a different way if more accurate terms were used (as well as cutting out all the embellishments and strawmen), but alas, here we are.

So all this begs the question: why has no public official ever run on a platform of being an elitist, using that word specifically to promote their campaign and themselves?

If the word is truly neutral (in that it can be positive or negative), why has it never been utilized in any meaningful positive fashion?

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Let me guess, you people would LOVE the ban on DPS meters lifted so you could belittle and kick out DPSers who are not up to par wih your expectations of how much DPS a player is supposed to be doing.

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You people are spinning everything and choosing not to hear. DPS meters and Parses are excellent tools, that when used properly, can improve you personally and help you figure out what went wrong and or right in a group/raid. It is data, the more of it you have the better it gets. Yes an individual parse or meter can produce some bad data, but over time when you collect enough it is highly helpful in hands of someone who knows how to analyze it. I enjoy analyzing data. I have a hard time understanding people who do not want to improve or do not care about their performance when they part of a team assembled for the sole purpose of competing content. When you do these things alone, go willy nilly, who cares.

I come from a heavy team sports background. My desire to improve and perform at the highest level I am capable of comes from a place of not wanting to let my teammates down. I really do not care for personal glory, I want us win sure, but the thing that's drives me, and always has, is not letting others down. I feel like that the people many of you insult calling them elite feel the same as I do. People like us have a VERY hard time understanding people who don't care about their own performance that sign up as part of a team to accomplish a common goal.

As a matter of fact, other not showing up, the worst thing you can do to your teammates is to show up unprepared. The best teams I have been a part of loved each other so much that the thought of letting them down was too much to bear it made you want to be the very best you could be. That's the crux of it for us, we study, research and try to do our very best BECAUSE WE DON"T WANT TO LET YOU DOWN. When you come off with an attitude of, I don't care, it's DF, deal with it, can you really be shocked that people that feel as we do get upset with you? Are you really that obtuse?

Elitism should be associated with a positive connotation. It just blatantly means a person that puts a great deal of effort or are genuinely talented. Everyone plays a game for a reason, to complete it, have a good time, for the story, etc.

I am a "hardcore" elitist myself. I strive to get things accomplished first and set aside obstacles that would get in the way. After having finished my goal, I do not forsake the people who had supported me along the way. I go back to teach and assist, an example of what a free company static should do. In addition to non-personal people, I had offered sale runs that would allow the ability to "bypass" content in the game so that they could participate in the current patch. I have taken people in from PF with a pre-made group of 7 just to assist them with a Turn 5 or Turn 9 kill for no charge, because everyone knows how it feels to suffer through content.

I am guilty of having people run into the death walls in turn 5, turn 9, and turn 13 so that we could guarantee them the kill. Sometimes, everyone just wants to play the game and have fun, so we would spend 2 hours wiping to a turn to teach a new random player we don't even know. That is true love of the game. I don't use DPS meters, because everything is about execution and effort, its easy to notice if someone is doing their rotation wrong if you're proficient in all classes.

I have left free companies and people I enjoy for the sake of progression. I have transferred off Ultros for the sake of progression in Savage content, which yields only a vanity title, but in the end, when I am satisfied, I always return. So I did, to help the community that had assisted me along the way, just like a King who rewards those who stand by his side. I had hoped to start a community on my server for Heavensward, but time forbids me.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Fair enough with the descriptions :) But for the record, I do NOT think being elite is bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being the best at what you do. Being an elitist (per my idea of the word), is horrible.

I would say that in a gaming community, it is widely accepted that elitist is used in a negative way. Perhaps it is my own personal bias, but in my 10+ years of MMOs, I have never once heard that term used in a positive way until this thread.

I do think this thread could have gone a different way if more accurate terms were used (as well as cutting out all the embellishments and strawmen), but alas, here we are.

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But that is the crux of the issue. People are associating their negative definitions of elitists and applying it to the elite. You see it every day on these forums and in game. Just being good at the game frequently gains the ire of lots of people just for existing. Just read any of Kosmos' posts for the last few months.

People constantly lump the elite (people who play at a high level) with the 'elitist attitude' (being a jerk).

Add in that we (the elite) are scapegoats for every imaginable problem faced by those less successful in game. I am somehow the reason Joe casual hasn't beaten t9 because I as an elite player (or vet or whatever) don't spend my time after work joining his learning party. If we hint that someone could make an adjustment to improve we are lashed out at because we're telling people how to play, or my personal favorite, the weird attempt to shame us for trying. "Its just a game bruh! I have a REAL LIFE so I don't have time to learn your dumb nolife 'rotations' or 'mechanics'." As if being terrible is a badge if honor. Cracks me up every time. Oh and let's not forget about the link to rmt because we make it so impossible to progress that we force everyone to buy clears from....you guessed it, an elitist clear seller.

Sorry joe casual. I spent months practicing t9 before echo. Multiple hrs 2 to 3 days a week for MONTHS. I'm not oozing with sympathy because you cued solo in df 5 times and came crying to the forums with echo and 20 more ilvl in gear. Nor do I owe you anything. I've put my time in. I am not a terrible excuse for a human because I don't join you t9 prz HALP pf.

We are successful because we DON'T blame others for our failures. Instead of looking for excuses, look for solutions. The longer anyone blames their version of The Man for their failure, the longer you stay a failure. Take control if your situation instead of making excuses.

There are lots of elite players that are sick and tired of being labeled as the devil to all that is good and holy in an mmo. The OP described that. That's why it has so many likes and "I agree with op" posts. Being good (elite) has ZERO coorelation with being a jerk (negative connotation of elitist the Internet has chosen).

I don't remember the tracks star in high school being shunned and hated for being a dick by everyone slower just because they were good at something. But here on the internet, our success is apparently a direct attack on others who aren't as successful. I still blame the everyone gets a participation ribbon generation, but that's for another time.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Char limit

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Yes, character limit is very strong.

OP uses bandwagon posts to farm likes.

OP and her army of sock puppets find that she isn't as popular as she thinks she is.

OP tries to flip-flop on her statement because people disagreed with it.

OP's credibility is now irrevocably damaged.

Welcome to the internet OP.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

That goodness

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Be my friend Izsha \^_^/ lol. Stuff u said so true.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

snip

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Have my little Lala babies please.

Someone earlier tried (and failed) to summarize this thread. Anyone that wants a breakdown of what has gone on for these 50 pages should read this as frankly, it makes more sense than what the original OP was trying to say.

/salute

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Originally Posted by Izsha

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This 100% summarizes my feelings in a concise way. Thank you Izsha. I really don't think I could have said it any better.

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Originally Posted by Kedemonos

Elitism should be associated with a positive connotation. It just blatantly means a person that puts a great deal of effort or are genuinely talented.

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Elitism, by definition, has nothing to do with action or effort.

Elitism is an egocentric mindset whereby the elitist individual presumes and declares themselves objectively superior to others based on criteria created either by themselves or by other members of their "elite" social strata.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Truth.

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

Have my little Lala babies please.

Someone earlier tried (and failed) to summarize this thread. Anyone that wants a breakdown of what has gone on for these 50 pages should read this as frankly, it makes more sense than what the original OP was trying to say.

/salute

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Seconded, Izsha's post is the best response in the 50 pages of this thread.

Everything Izsha decided to whine about could be applied to any demographic within this game. Casuals, raiders, newbies, roleplayers, etc.

Everybody gets picked on. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

But that is the crux of the issue. People are associating their negative definitions of elitists and applying it to the elite. You see it every day on these forums and in game. Just being good at the game frequently gains the ire of lots of people just for existing. Just read any of Kosmos' posts for the last few months.

People constantly lump the elite (people who play at a high level) with the 'elitist attitude' (being a jerk). Add in that we (the elite) are scapegoats for every imaginable problem faced by those less successful in game. I am somehow the reason Joe casual hasn't beaten t9 because I as an elite player (or vet or whatever) don't spend my time after work joining his learning party. If we hint that someone could make an adjustment to improve we are lashed out at because we're telling people how to play, or my personal favorite, the weird attempt to shame us for trying. "Its just a game bruh! I have a REAL LIFE so I don't have time to learn your dumb nolife 'rotations' or 'mechanics'." Oh and let's not forget about the link to rmt because we make it so impossible to progress that we force everyone to buy clears from....you guessed it, an elitist clear seller.

Sorry joe casual. I spent months practicing t9 before echo. Multiple hrs 2 to 3 days a week for MONTHS. I'm not oozing with sympathy because you cued solo in df 5 times and came crying to the forums with echo and 20 more ilvl in gear. Nor do I owe you anything. I've put my time in. I am not a terrible excuse for a human because I don't join you t9 prz HALP df.

There are lots of elite players that are sick and tired of being labeled as the devil to all that is good and holy in an mmo. The OP described that. That's why it has so many likes and "I agree with op" posts. Being good (elite) has ZERO coorelation with being a jerk (negative connotation of elitist the Internet has chosen).

I don't remember the tracks star in high school being shunned and hated for being a dick by everyone slower just because they were good at something. But here on the internet, our success is apparently a direct attack on others who aren't as successful. I still blame the everyone gets a participation ribbon generation, but that's for another time.

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I would agree with you that plenty of well-meaning people get told off when trying to offer tips, or get yelled at when someone who is clearly not fit joins their very specific PF group, and probably a multitude of other situations where things can be taken the wrong way. On the flip side of that, there are plenty of skilled players who will yell at random people in DF for not doing a speed run (or not doing something to their liking), drop party after a single wipe, berate people when they can't keep up with mechanics on Titan extreme because "it's so easy that 'I an even typing this post while fighitng!'" and a plethora of other things here as well.

This thread has suffered from crazy exaggerations on how the "other side" really is. My issue with the OP is that they pretty much implied that the greater player base is a bunch of scrubs that have no respect for those with more skill, and that they have no true desire to better themselves and strive for greater things. They simply want things handed to them and will cry and accuse others of holding them back and label them elitists when they refuse to lend a hand. Are there players like that? Of course! But the OP drones on and on as if this is a constant behavior for all players around them, and it reads like some over-dramatized speech that was only typed to try and rally the masses. I don't need a sob story depicting how difficult it is for them. It can be unpleasant on the other side too.


I suppose my point would be there are jackasses on both sides of the spectrum. There are plenty of people who don't know how to play with other people, those who bring unreasonable expectations to the game, those with entitlement issues, but despite what some people may think, those traits are not solely claimed by the "less-experienced" crowd. The OP seems to think that everyone is against the elite players, and it is simply not true.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

nice

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Well put, completely agreed.

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I don't remember the tracks star in high school being shunned and hated for being a dick by everyone slower just because they were good at something. But here on the internet, our success is apparently a direct attack on others who aren't as successful. I still blame the everyone gets a participation ribbon generation, but that's for another time.

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This is the good way to make a point the OP was claiming to make. No one should be hated because they are good at something. A person who is TRULY good at something doesn't need to come off as a condescending preach. Good players just play; that's why we don't see anyone from The Order of Blue Gartr coming on here and making "you noobs suck" threads like this.

I honestly don't see why someone leaving a party after a single wipe is a bad thing. If they'd rather eat that 30 minute penalty than stick around, that's their choice. No one should feel obligated to stay in a party they don't want to be in-- that's why we have the ability to leave duties in the first place.

Wiping on a first try is often (but not always) a precursor to future wipes, and if someone doesn't feel up to dealing with that, they should be able to leave without being vilified for it.

there are a lot of posts with a lot of words in them. and a lot of these posts i can agree or sympathize with.

i can also understand why non-elite and elite can be complete dicks to each other. because sometimes it is really easy to be an arse to someone who is on the other side of a screen.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/internet_argument.png

It's an mmo community, we have people being good and bad at all levels. we probably even have that one guy who was carried through all the turns, is complete crap, and still thinks he's hot shit, and on the other side have the humblest person who is a bloody savant at raiding but just isn't going to bother.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I honestly don't see why someone leaving a party after a single wipe is a bad thing. If they'd rather eat that 30 minute penalty than stick around, that's their choice. No one should feel obligated to stay in a party they don't want to be in-- that's why we have the ability to leave duties in the first place.

Wiping on a first try is often (but not always) a precursor to future wipes, and if someone doesn't feel up to dealing with that, they should be able to leave without being vilified for it.

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So apparently it's just one shots or nothing, right? Just how did people expect to get anywhere with this attitude?

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I honestly don't see why someone leaving a party after a single wipe is a bad thing. If they'd rather eat that 30 minute penalty than stick around, that's their choice. No one should feel obligated to stay in a party they don't want to be in-- that's why we have the ability to leave duties in the first place.

Wiping on a first try is often (but not always) a precursor to future wipes, and if someone doesn't feel up to dealing with that, they should be able to leave without being vilified for it.

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Sorry, didn't elaborate much on that and was tossing out common situations. Someone simply leaving isn't a bad thing, time is precious, and people may feel it's a waste of time. From my experiences, a good number of people who quit after one attempt on a fight have been spouting off at the mouth during the fight, and then leave the group with another zinger for good measure. Not all, of course, but a very good number. Just my personal experience, others may vary may experience otherwise. So I guess it was this type of person I was referring to ;)

I don't expect anyone to stick around longer than they want to, but you don't have to be a dick to the group before leaving. Simply leaving, or even just a "hey, I'm sorry, but this isn't going to work" before dropping is fine. Granted, there may be some people who complain at that point and unfairly label the person an elitist, but that ties into the expectations issue that can be found in some people and shouldn't be condoned either.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

So apparently it's just one shots or nothing, right? Just how did people expect to get anywhere with this attitude?

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So you'd rather they stick around and be nasty at the rest of the group for messing up? No thanks. If someone is going to be grumpy over wipes, I'd much rather they just leave.

Best thing to do is let people go. You do not want to group with someone who does not want to be there. FWIW I am in the camp that says kick anyone who requests it. I have never requested to be kicked, i am willing to eat the penalty, however I always vote to kick someone who requests it. I do not want to group with anyone who doesn't want to group with me.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

From my experiences, a good number of people who quit after one attempt on a fight have been spouting off at the mouth during the fight, and then leave the group with another zinger for good measure. Not all, of course, but a very good number. Just my personal experience, others may vary may experience otherwise.

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We've definitely had different experiences, then, because what I tend to see is the person just dropping quietly without saying a word. I've seen a few jerks like the ones you described, but they've been the minority in my overall experience. Usually the first realization I get that someone has left is the "LIGHT PARTY" text.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I did say it only I tried to say it in a way that was more entertaining. "Self-centered"? I tried to have some fun and create a good read. But ah, it is easier to destroy than create, right?

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Today I learned, being arrogant and self-centered is entertaining. "Have some fun and create a good read." For who, you?

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

So you'd rather they stick around and be nasty at the rest of the group for messing up? No thanks. If someone is going to be grumpy over wipes, I'd much rather they just leave.

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It's the "quit after two wipes" attitude that makes it difficult for new players to get better at content. That's why we have so many people noobing it up in DF and PF in the first place.

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Today I learned, being arrogant and self-centered is entertaining. "Have some fun and create a good read." For who, you?

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The OP failed to make a point and then claimed it was "having fun and create a good read"? Which is it OP? 50 pages of posts and for what? Not only have you abused the forums, but now you have damaged your creditably and now no one (other than your army of sock-puppets) is every going to take you seriously ever again. Next time, actually put thought into what your are saying, something you can't be bothered to do.

We can all say Hitler was a Nazi who committed horrible atrocities, that little kids in third world countries are suffering and in dire need of education, shelter, etc., or that Obama screwed up the economy with his half-baked Obama Care... and we'd be right, but what exactly are you going to do about these things other than complain about them, saying "people need to do better?". I don't know what your running for OP, but you're not getting MY vote.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

An elitist is just one who considers themselves elite. The OP even used the definition of elitist.

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I've said this several times before in this topic, but it bears repeating; considering oneself to be elite is light years from actually being elite. Being elitist does not require or confer elite status. Being an elitist is a state of mind driven by ego not ability. Elite is a status or reputation conferred by others based on achievement or ability.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

It's the "quit after two wipes" attitude that makes it difficult for new players to get better at content. That's why we have so many people noobing it up in DF and PF in the first place.

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No one should be forced to stick around in a party they don't want to be in for whatever reason. Period. That doesn't make them a bad person or an elitist, because no one has an obligation to play teacher if they don't feel like it. I say this as someone who spends the majority of my play time helping other people out.

It's ridiculously entitled to think that experienced players are obliged to help new players with content all the time. Sometimes you just don't feel like it and that's fine. Forcing people into the teacher role is a surefire way to make them dislike and resent new players and be less inclined to be helpful.

Wow your post has over 250 likes... Guess I'm gonna have to read it now.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

-snip-

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You didn't get that far by yourself. You didn't become "elite" on your own.