Can you please Ease Up on Atma now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllPii

Okay, out of 2.5million players. Realistically, what? 1million players, and maybe a handful of players complaining about atma? <1000?

---

I'd wager that 1000 is probably EU and NA region combined. The Japanese aren't complaining about Atma at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rysir

The fact that the atma stage does literally nothing

---

But that's not true. Yes, it doesn't become statistically better, but it does get a new (cooler, depending on your tastes) texture, is bumped up item level 100, and allows you to move onto the next part of the relic chain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

But that's not true. Yes, it doesn't become statistically better, but it does get a new (cooler, depending on your tastes) texture, is bumped up item level 100, and allows you to move onto the next part of the relic chain.

---

"Yay I just smashed thru 1200 fates over the past month to change my weapon color" said no sane person ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taliph

"Yay I just smashed thru 1200 fates over the past month to change my weapon color" said no sane person ever.

---

You lose the glow too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I'd wager that 1000 is probably EU and NA region combined. The Japanese aren't complaining about Atma at all.

---

I honestly believe, that the type of people complaining about Atma, are those that have never played a single JRPG in their life.
Grinding levels, killing thousands of monsters for gear, is the crux of a JRPG; is nothing new. The blood, sweat and tears one has to go through to obtain something so measly.
Back in FF12, obtaining a Zodiac spear; cannot not open specific chests in the story until that certain point in time otherwise you'd have to restart the game, 10% chance the chest appeared on boot, 10% chance that it contained an item, and 10% chance that the item was the zodiac spear.
That's 1 in 1000 chance; to top it off there exists people that have 8 of them (1 for each character).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllPii

I honestly believe, that the type of people complaining about Atma, are those that have never played a single JRPG in their life.
Grinding levels, killing thousands of monsters for gear, is the crux of a JRPG; is nothing new.
The blood, sweat and tears make it all worthwhile.
Back in FF12, obtaining a zodiac spear 10%; Cannot not open specific chests in the story until that certain point in time otherwise you'd have to restart the game, 10% chance the chest appeared on boot, 10% chance that it contained an item, and 10% chance that the item was the zodiac spear. That's 1 in 1000 chance; to top it off there exists people that have 8 of them (1 for each character).

---

I wish I had a save point near the chest atma dropped from too...

Lots and lots of complaints over players still not able to obtain content that has been out for months...

Yet atma doesnt an update. Hmmmm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

But that's not true. Yes, it doesn't become statistically better, but it does get a new (cooler, depending on your tastes) texture, is bumped up item level 100, and allows you to move onto the next part of the relic chain.

---

Which is exactly why it needs nerfed, it is just a stepping stone and its only worth something when it is already over. This quest would have been just fine with us hunting down 12 researchers and get some lore on the weapon then get the crystal from each of them then go on the myth tome grind.

Considering the whole relic quest is about getting your weapon statistically better as you go, its not very grand to have a stage that has the sole purpose of not getting statistically stronger.

You guys who are defending atma just dont get it.

Its just another form of lockout.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taliph

I wish I had a save point near the chest atma dropped from too...

---

Reading comprehension, and drawing similarities from examples is an important skill in life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

But that's not true. Yes, it doesn't become statistically better, but it does get a new (cooler, depending on your tastes) texture, is bumped up item level 100, and allows you to move onto the next part of the relic chain.

---

Out of all the steps, Atma is potentially the longest and most frustrating. Out of all of the steps, Atma is also the only one that doesn't actually qualify as a true upgrade. A new paint job and a meaningless ilvl bump (because the weapon still has the stats of an i90 weapon), while being a "reward", doesn't quite match up to the amount of effort required to obtain it.

For some reason you and your ilk seem to think asking for it to be changed means people want the Atma just handed out and that's not true. People want it to be a step where you aren't wholly at the mercy of RNG. What's wrong with wanting it to be a similar grind to all the other steps where you can actually control and see your progress? A grind that's long because it requires a lot of work is fine. A grind that's long and potentially indefinite because you're having to rely on the roll of invisible dice is bad design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

I'd wager that 1000 is probably EU and NA region combined. The Japanese aren't complaining about Atma at all.

---

The Japanese by nature are a lot different to western folk, they take a lot of things without question or pause.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllPii

I honestly believe, that the type of people complaining about Atma, are those that have never played a single JRPG in their life.
Grinding levels, killing thousands of monsters for gear, is the crux of a JRPG; is nothing new. The blood, sweat and tears one has to go through to obtain something so measly.
Back in FF12, obtaining a Zodiac spear; cannot not open specific chests in the story until that certain point in time otherwise you'd have to restart the game, 10% chance the chest appeared on boot, 10% chance that it contained an item, and 10% chance that the item was the zodiac spear.
That's 1 in 1000 chance; to top it off there exists people that have 8 of them (1 for each character).

---

How wrong you are.

Bahamut Lagoon
Star Ocean
Tales of mana
Legend of mana
Sword of mana
Final Fantasy 1 through 12 (Tactics, Legend and Gaiden included)
Mother (earthbound)
XenoSaga
Valkyrie Profile
Chrono Trigger

and thats just just stuff from my gaming generation . . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiverTams

You guys who are defending atma just dont get it.

Its just another form of lockout.

---

With the amount of new players these days, we're more likely to be getting up in their face during fates where we mow down all the mobs and they get hardly any participation for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllPii

Reading comprehension, and drawing similarities from examples is an important skill in life.

---

Just pointing out the HUGE difference between atma and your example.

Edit: since you dont understand, the save point effectively gives you unlimited Attempts at that chest, thereby allowing you to manipulate your chances. Still doesn't change the fact that I had to do 4 times as much work to get my atma as those who got it in 300 fates.

Yes? Please elaborate.
If you've ever attempted the run, you'd understand that without paying attention the mobs can kill you in your tracks, and that it's not simply just turn off turn on your machine.

Edit: A single attempt at a chest is the same as a single attempt at a Fate.
Fates are unlimited, meaning there will always be a Fate per attempt; contrasting, a single run for a zodiac spear doesn't guarantee that the chest will spawn, effectively not allowing you to attempt to obtain it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

For some reason you and your ilk seem to think asking for it to be changed means people want the Atma just handed out and that's not true. People want it to be a step where you aren't wholly at the mercy of RNG. What's wrong with wanting it to be a similar grind to all the other steps where you can actually control and see your progress? A grind that's long because it requires a lot of work is fine. A grind that's long and potentially indefinite because you're having to rely on the roll of invisible dice is bad design.

---

If they made it easier it would essentially be handed out. If they only increased it by a percentile or a few, people would still complain.

Your control lies in how many fates you decide to do, your indication of progress is when you receive the Atma.

People here really tend to exaggerate the amount of grinding required to get Atma.

As I've said before, try to take it more casually. If you queue up for something like Syrcus Tower or Frontlines, try to do some FATEs here and there in whatever region you're looking for an Atma. If you're not having any luck, move to a different zone or take a break and come back to it later.

Nobody is forcing you to grind Atma. Nobody is forcing you to get a relic, as you do not need it because there are plenty of weapons that are just as good and don't require said grind that you seem to loathe so much.

I feel like people here are so blinded by their own desires that they fail to see that this might not be content aimed at them. Would you ask them to nerf Savage Coil just because you didn't like that it was hard but wanted the cool title for your character, even though it doesn't add anything of statistical value to you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

Your control lies in how many fates you decide to do, your indication of progress is when you receive the Atma.

---

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4083/5...69d1d1be72.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

[image]

---

You can control how many FATEs you want to do. When you receive an Atma, it is a clear indication that you have made progress. Please explain to me how this is incorrect, I'm interested.

Also, calling someone a troll because they've said something you disagree with not only does not make them a troll, but it also does nothing to defend whatever point you're trying to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

You can control how many FATEs you want to do. When you receive an Atma, it is a clear indication that you have made progress. Please explain to me how this is incorrect, I'm interested.

---

Any 'progression' is null when its fuckin' RANDOMIZED.

Edit: I posted that picture because dispite all the facts and the statistics shown from all sorts of players going through the same grief when it comes to atma, You're STILL defending this insane mechanic. It's like you LOVE the suffering!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

Any 'progression' is null when its fuckin' RANDOMIZED.

---

But it's not. How can you claim that receiving an Atma is not an indication of progress? If you have no Atmas, and you receive one, you have 1 out of 12. Therefore, you know and are aware that you have 11 more Atma to acquire. That is an indication of progress, whether you dislike that fact or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

Do you really think that posting an irrelevant image with text on it somehow invalidates my statement? It doesn't. You can control how many FATEs you want to do. When you receive an Atma, it is a clear indication that you have made progress. How can you claim that this isn't the truth?

---

Except the variable of FATEs completed isn't what you are thinking it is. Someone can do 12 FATEs and get 12 atma and someone can do 1200 FATEs and get 0 atma. Unless you get an atma no progress has been made towards the atma weapon and there is no way to progress in getting atma stones because there is nothing to progress towards. Its either 0 or 100. There is no middle ground. As opposed to say grind 1000 FATEs in Central Shroud to get your atma. In this case you have a clear goal and measurable progress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

Except the variable of FATEs completed isn't what you are thinking it is.

---

I never said it had anything to do with the number of FATEs completed. I said that you have the choice with how many FATEs you decide to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

Someone can do 12 FATEs and get 12 atma and someone can do 1200 FATEs and get 0 atma.

---

While this is true, the probability of it happening is incredibly low, and I would love to see evidence of someone getting 12 Atma in 12 FATEs as well as someone doing 1200 FATEs without receiving a single one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

there is no way to progress in getting atma because there is nothing to progress towards.

---

If this were true then it would literally be impossible to get an Atma weapon because, according to this, there is no way to progress in getting Atma. Your progression in acquiring Atma is indicated by you receiving an Atma. What you are working towards is acquiring all 12 Atma. This is how you gauge your progress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

Name-calling isn't really helping your case, you know.

---

I would not blame any of this mob, you have been infuriatingly ignorant and provocative to them.

Just visiting this thread and happening across this bickering has made me change my opinion. Its like you are in another world from these people- why are you here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dashuto

I would not blame any of this mob, you have been infuriatingly ignorant and provocative to them.

Just visiting this thread and happening across this bickering has made me change my opinion. Its like you are in another world from these people- why are you here?

---

Because they are "amused". Get it? Eh? Eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

Your control lies in how many fates you decide to do, your indication of progress is when you receive the Atma.

---

How long did it take to get your Atma?
Just curious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

I never said it had anything to do with the number of FATEs completed. I said that you have the choice with how many FATEs you decide to do.



While this is true, the probability of it happening is incredibly low, and I would love to see evidence of someone getting 12 Atma in 12 FATEs as well as someone doing 1200 FATEs without receiving a single one.



If this were true then it would literally be impossible to get an Atma weapon because, according to this, there is no way to progress in getting Atma. Your progression in acquiring Atma is indicated by you receiving an Atma. What you are working towards is acquiring all 12 Atma. This is how you gauge your progress.

---

No, according to this there is no progress to getting your atma stones. You simply acquire them through rng. You don't progress towards the acquisition, it simply happens when the dice and rng god align.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

Any 'progression' is null when its fuckin' RANDOMIZED.

Edit: I posted that picture because dispite all the facts and the statistics shown from all sorts of players going through the same grief when it comes to atma, You're STILL defending this insane mechanic. It's like you LOVE the suffering!

---

People that seem fairly masochistic in other ways are actually wanting this shit nerfed... its too much even for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amused

But it is obvious, you know you've made progress when you get a new Atma.

---

That's progress towards the weapon. There's currently no progress towards obtaining an Atma.

Unless this is your idea of progress.
(The Atma is number 42 between 1 out of 100. How many times do you get '42' in 12 clicks?)
Just to add, you can only click once every 1-5 minutes. Any time you get an odd number, you wait 1 minute. Any time you get an even number, 5 minutes. Any time you hit a prime number, however, you wait seven minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

That's progress towards the weapon. There's currently no progress towards obtaining an Atma.

Unless this is your idea of progress.
(The Atma is number 42 between 1 out of 100. How many times do you get '42' in 12 clicks?)

---

^This

/char

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avarghaladion

Yeah, the comment you're replying to there is out to lunch XD Someone could get 11 Atma in a few hours, then spend hundreds of hours getting the final Atma. I got eight Atma very quickly myself and then proceeded to take about 130-140+ additional hours to get the last four... People have casino-style slot machine addiction when they think they can discern progress in a pure RNG grind.

---

It's a worrying trend. I think some people are just genuinely masochistic, and there are even people here arguing its merits who haven't even attempted the atma grind. Surely if it wasn't so bad, they'd be one of the first on the grind treadmill.

For the record, I own an atma weapon. I went through that hell and came out the other side. I know what goes into getting it, and I hate it. I'm not the type to comment on something I've never experienced before, nor the type to candy-coat my statements. I just wish that SE would pay more attention to the uproar over the drop rate rather than sweeping it all under the rug and pretending it didn't happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

Gotta love slippery slope

---

Awesome, let's lay off the balance team so no changes ever get made. Ya know, because slippery slope?

I'm currently 7 Atmas into the 12, and I can tell you right now, this is the single most miserable piece of content in the game. I have this single completely garbage step in between the steps that I actually want to do. I enjoy progressing through content like the books, but this Atma RNG crap is completely awful. Dreadfully boring, and there is no end in sight. So yes, I would like adjustments made to get past this horribly concocted mess of a quest.

I literally figure this quest was made in the span of an hour and they shipped it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skaterger

what is wrong with adding some RNG into a RPG?

---

If it were in content that was actually fun (FATE's are too easy and mind numbingly boring. They do not teach you how to play your Job, which was a requirement to get our Relic weapons) and was set at a 50% (we've all made NQ items at 98% chance of HQ before. Or 'missed' a tree more than once for something at 90%) chance drop rate, then it would be fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

If it were in content that was actually fun (FATE's are too easy and mind numbingly boring. They do not teach you how to play your Job, which was a requirement to get our Relic weapons) and was set at a 50% (we've all made NQ items at 98% chance of HQ before. Or 'missed' a tree more than once for something at 90%) chance drop rate, then it would be fine.

---

That part of "teaching" you how to play your class was in the hard mode primals. Which part about animus was teaching you to play your class? Novus? Nexus? The only way they could make it based on difficulty was either by designing new fights or through clearing SCOB. I wouldn't mind that, but would you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

too easy and mind numbingly boring.

---

No different than 500 garuda/levi hm, 2000 cape westwind, 270 brayflox, or 75 expert roulettes

For Animus, you had to do dungeons (amongst other things). For Novus, you had to fight 75 Mysterious Map monsters. Nexus I've not done and choose to take my time with when I resub to the game.

Though thinking about it, SE are being very lazy (though the Mysterious Map monsters was a step in the right direction) with the Zodiac quests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skaterger

That part of "teaching" you how to play your class was in the hard mode primals. Which part about animus was teaching you to play your class? Novus? Nexus? The only way they could make it based on difficulty was either by designing new fights or through clearing SCOB. I wouldn't mind that, but would you?



No different than 500 garuda/levi hm, 2000 cape westwind, 270 brayflox, or 75 expert roulettes

---

At least one day they will be finished. You can farm atma forever and never get anything.

Sorry to tell you this, but running the dungeons and stuff was as mind numbing as fate grinding. This was mostly because they were so easy and I already ran them hundreds of times while levelling all my DOW/DOM characters to 50. The only fun about brayflox was trying set a new personal record each time I ran it (5 min 4 sec was the best time I had). The maps were also fun as I made it a point to solo them instead of doing it with a party. Yeah that's about it.

To make it clear, I'm all for making it easier to acquire atma now, either through prng or increase drop rate as I mentioned previously. I see it as something no different from echo buff with coil to help new/more casual players get through older content. The way the thread is going seems to be have deviated from the original intent. What I'm arguing here is the totally removal of rng as a game mechanic for all current and future content. It seems to be the bane of some here and I would just like to say something to represent players on opposite end of the spectrum. Peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skias

At least one day they will be finished. You can farm atma forever and never get anything.

---

Forever..never..okay...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skaterger

My question is, every part of the quest so far is measurable, what is wrong with adding some RNG into a RPG? Can you accept a differing view that some people like rng or do you only insist that it is objectively bad?

---

RNG isn't inherently bad. It can be good for the longevity of a game as long as it's done right. However, Atma in its current form is an example of how not to do it. It's far too extreme for the reward given and in comparison to all of the other steps.

Here's an alternative system just off the top of my head that still keeps within the spirit (RNG) of the current one without being bat-shit insane or completely overhauling the system:

Each successful FATE gives you an Atma Fragment (or at least drops a fragment at a reasonable rate). When you amass [insertarbitrarynumber] fragments you can combine them into a complete stone. Each FATE also has a chance to just give you a complete stone at a substantially lower drop rate, just like it works right now.

So now you have a system where RNG smiles upon the fortunate and helps them progress faster while at the same time it doesn't completely stonewall players who are lacking in the luck department. They may not progress as fast as their luckier peers, but they're still making progress on all (or most) of their FATEs nonetheless. Honestly, it’s what we have now, only with a safety net to guard against bad luck.

It isn’t perfect. A system where everyone's on the same footing (like with the other steps) would be best, but I'm thinking this up from the point of view of someone who likes RNG such as yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

snip

---

I think 3-5% per drop is pretty generous, considering some other JRPGs. I've been playing mmos for more than 10 years and some have the most atrocious drop rates, so I can see how abrasive the current system can be for new players, especially if its their first mmo. I understand this. But I have also met players who are flat out lazy, they wait till everything is nerfed before attempting it.

As for your proposed system, this would indeed be a good system to implement now. I have never argued against it. I would still prefer to keep the current rng system for new content that is released (though I doubt it will happen with all the uproar atma caused :) )

As with everything, trends come and go, regardless of what I or some others say, if there's enough inertia for the game to change in a certain direction, it will happen. Just like how games have gotten easier over time or how rpg used to be sandbox but now mostly are themepark. Just learn to adapt, that is all.