Can't believe they haven't owned up to this yet. Embarrassing. People are going to leave and that makes me sad. SE doesn't deserve customers though if they don't address one of the main issues the community has.
.3 Second Positional Update Delay (Requesting Dev Response)
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11-17-2013, 02:43 AMBerezo
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11-17-2013, 03:20 AMEclipsed
Doing ADS last night, I was all too reminded of this issue. Watching as my silences as a tank failed to work even though they fully landed and I saw the effect before the cast bar was done. Watching as people got out of piercing laser before the cast was over but still died. Watching as that key benediction landed on me or the other tank when we were at low health and I saw the healing numbers but still died. There is only one game I have ever played that was this terribly coded, and that was FFXIV 1.0...
I want to love this game and be committed to it, but I am reaching the end of my patience due to the issue described in this thread. -
11-17-2013, 03:32 AMBabydoll
Such a shame they are losing customers and will continue to do so because they can't make a simple post at least acknowledging this issues existence.
I guess they learned nothing much from 1.0!
I will also be canceling if this isn't addressed. -
11-17-2013, 04:03 AMSybreed
I don't know if I can last more than another month if this issue doesn't see any sort of resolution, or at least is addressed. I've only been playing going on two months now, and I enjoy the game, and have patience for shortcomings in many areas that others do not (lack of endgame content, etc). But when it comes to getting hit by attacks that I am CLEARLY out of, and dying, that's where I draw the line. I haven't seen a technical issue like this since I played Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, and that game is pretty much a legend for being half-assed and buggy/broken as hell when it came out.
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11-17-2013, 09:42 AMSoukyuuThey promised to reduce the lag as well, as it was just as much of a problem in 1.0 (namely Ifrit's eruptions) - that's what the whole regional server talk was about. And hey, some people did get a lag reduction - people geographically close to Canada, that is. And EU players go a slap to the face. Last time I checked, Canada was not part of the EU, neither politically nor geographically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
The hilarious part is, I am actually sometimes getting a smoother experience playing on the JAPANESE servers, depending on the day and the route. So all the regional servers brought me so far is a community split (as I thought it would, but that's getting wayyy off topic) -
11-17-2013, 10:00 AMNaelle
They have reduced the lag. I've not had a single instance of the issues people in this thread are complaining about. I take that back my ISP was screwed for a few days and I had this EXACT problem. Then the net speeds came back and the issue was gone. It's been said a hundred times by now but the issue isn't the game servers (at least entirely). I played 1.0 and that was obvious but has been resolved.
Also, offensively calling out the devs is the last thing that's going to get them to post a response. -
11-17-2013, 10:39 AMSunarieThe problem is in the way SE programmed the game. For a full explanation of how it's different from every other MMO out there, Sinth posted a very comprehensive thread (which I've added to the OP), as he has experience in the industry. Telling people there is no problem because you don't experience, or blaming it just on lag, is being fairly ignorant. I'm not saying latency issues don't contribute to it, they do, but they do not -cause- it. If you fix the cause then the minor fluctuations in latency, or packet loss, end up not being a glaring problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
That being said, as Sinth has stated, this was a design choice SE would have had to make early on, and will likely take millions of dollars if they try and fix it. So, it likely isn't going to be fixed. I still think SE should make some sort of statement about it though. Given how widespread the problem is. Even if the statement is just that people have to deal with it. -
11-17-2013, 12:04 PMNaelleMy point is that if it were a design choice/flaw it would effect everyone, not just some. We all have a global cooldown because that's part of the game. Only some people experiencing this issue and only being able to replicate via throttled connections paints an image far from the one you describe. I do appreciate your comment on ignorance as those who feel harmed or ignored are generally the ones ignoring fact and reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunarie
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11-17-2013, 12:14 PMAlcyon_DensetsuYou should really read the OP of this post: Why the netcode issue exists, and why it cannot be fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
And this post by the same guy: Why the netcode issue exists, and why it cannot be fixed. (post #7)
I don't know about you but I put my money on the guy who's got education and first-hand experience in working in a freaking MMOG datacenter. I'd wager he knows a bit more about "reality" than random players who don't know better about the technical intricacies of operating online games. Your point may sound logic (I could come up with the same idea, really, no sarcasm here), but things are a *bit* more complicated than simple layman's logic. Everyone's an expert, right? Well, no.
Also, throttling has little to do with the issue theoretically as it pertains to bandwidth, not latency. However, given that this game is apparently using TCP instead of UDP (a weird and subpar choice to begin with), throttling may be aggravating the problem (not causing it though). -
11-17-2013, 12:16 PMTashigi
Naelle; if you play 7+ other MMO and none have this issue, are you trying to say that your connection is somehow magically responsible for the problems you experience in this game?
Because as it so happens, I play tons of MMO; both local to my ping (Within 20-80 MS ping range) and international (Korean/Chinese/Japanese; within 150-600 ping) and none, including those massively high ping ones, have this issue.
This issue affects everyone.
Some people notice it less than others, I would imagine. But it is very real and only found in this game.
Not even Wildstar (Which is currently being stress tested and close BETA tested) experiences this; a game that's not even accepting the general public yet! -
11-17-2013, 12:34 PMBabydollSo there is no .3mms lag? Yoshida lied? O.oQuote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
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11-17-2013, 01:06 PMSunarieEveryone is effected by it. If you had read the original post of this very thread, Yoshi himself has stated that even people with a "great connection" will experience a .1 second delay on cast bars, and the positions were updated every .3 seconds. That is caused by the very same thing that causes people to get hit by AOEs they are out of. Please do tell me what facts I have missed or ignored?Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
The large majority of the community seem to be majorly effected by this in that strategies around Titan (one of the most movement intensive fights) all seem to involve moving before he uses the skill. There are very few people posting they don't get the issue in comparison to those that do.. and even the people who don't get the AOE thing do not see instant interrupts during casts. Add to this that there are multiple videos out there, the issue not being present in any other MMOs, and enough information compiled from enough people for it to be an accepted (but not yet investigated/confirmed) bug.. and well, the facts really point to it being a problem. I would also say that the people who are experiencing it, have spent a lot more time investigating the causes, and what it is, than those who come in and say they don't have it therefore it's not an issue. If you're going to claim it isn't a thing, at least have some research to back it up instead of just "well I don't see it". That is why I said ignorant. -
11-17-2013, 09:48 PMSoukyuu"I don't have a problem, so it doesn't exist" is what I'm getting from that post. Where are you from? NA? Then of course you won't have as much lag as someone from the EU. Just by having less hops to the server you can avoid shitty ones that fail to forward your packets, a la this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
Also, server is not the problem? Why am I seeing a 13% packet loss on the last hop (=the server) then? How about 50% packet loss?Code:|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| WinMTR statistics |
| Host - % | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
| home - 0 | 34 | 34 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 1 |
| 217.0.116.236 - 0 | 34 | 34 | 41 | 44 | 68 | 47 |
| 217.237.156.38 - 0 | 34 | 34 | 44 | 48 | 61 | 49 |
| f-ed5-i.F.DE.NET.DTAG.DE - 0 | 34 | 34 | 45 | 47 | 61 | 45 |
| 62.157.249.234 - 0 | 34 | 34 | 45 | 47 | 62 | 45 |
| if-5-2.tcore1.PVU-Paris.as6453.net - 0 | 34 | 34 | 153 | 159 | 175 | 156 |
| if-12-2.tcore1.PYE-Paris.as6453.net - 0 | 34 | 34 | 158 | 162 | 172 | 160 |
| if-3-6.tcore1.L78-London.as6453.net - 0 | 34 | 34 | 157 | 169 | 214 | 160 |
| if-2-2.tcore2.L78-London.as6453.net - 0 | 34 | 34 | 158 | 165 | 204 | 163 |
| if-20-2.tcore2.NYY-NewYork.as6453.net - 36 | 14 | 9 | 0 | 162 | 198 | 155 |
| if-12-6.tcore1.CT8-Chicago.as6453.net - 0 | 34 | 34 | 156 | 164 | 183 | 160 |
| if-22-2.tcore2.CT8-Chicago.as6453.net - 32 | 16 | 11 | 177 | 186 | 197 | 190 |
| if-3-2.tcore1.W6C-Montreal.as6453.net - 0 | 34 | 34 | 152 | 171 | 198 | 157 |
| 66.198.96.50 - 13 | 24 | 21 | 206 | 214 | 237 | 206 |
| 192.34.76.2 - 23 | 18 | 14 | 206 | 208 | 230 | 207 |
| 199.91.189.234 - 8 | 26 | 24 | 206 | 210 | 233 | 210 |
| 199.91.189.22 - 13 | 24 | 21 | 207 | 211 | 236 | 207 |
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|
Code:|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| WinMTR statistics |
| Host - % | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
| home - 0 | 24 | 24 | 1 | 2 | 14 | 1 |
| 217.0.116.236 - 0 | 24 | 24 | 41 | 54 | 63 | 51 |
| 217.237.156.38 - 0 | 24 | 24 | 42 | 47 | 57 | 44 |
| f-ed5-i.F.DE.NET.DTAG.DE - 0 | 24 | 24 | 46 | 50 | 62 | 53 |
| 62.157.249.234 - 0 | 24 | 24 | 51 | 55 | 70 | 54 |
| if-5-2.tcore1.PVU-Paris.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 160 | 168 | 184 | 162 |
| if-12-2.tcore1.PYE-Paris.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 165 | 172 | 192 | 166 |
| if-3-6.tcore1.L78-London.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 154 | 161 | 168 | 160 |
| if-2-2.tcore2.L78-London.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 155 | 160 | 179 | 160 |
| if-20-2.tcore2.NYY-NewYork.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 157 | 168 | 208 | 164 |
| if-12-6.tcore1.CT8-Chicago.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 160 | 167 | 203 | 164 |
| if-22-2.tcore2.CT8-Chicago.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 165 | 173 | 198 | 167 |
| if-3-2.tcore1.W6C-Montreal.as6453.net - 0 | 24 | 24 | 159 | 167 | 185 | 166 |
| 66.198.96.50 - 0 | 24 | 24 | 205 | 211 | 231 | 205 |
| 192.34.76.2 - 5 | 20 | 19 | 204 | 214 | 257 | 207 |
| 199.91.189.234 - 25 | 12 | 9 | 205 | 211 | 228 | 208 |
| 199.91.189.22 - 50 | 8 | 4 | 0 | 206 | 210 | 210 |
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|
I'm stating the facts. They were all about getting back our trust. I'm saying they haven't fulfilled all of the promises yet. Nothing offensive about it.Quote:
Also, offensively calling out the devs is the last thing that's going to get them to post a response.
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11-18-2013, 12:05 AMNaelle
There is no denying that the information sent from client to server takes time, that's fact. Do you know what controls the speed of that packet? That'd be your internet connection. I'm glad you think I'm an uneducated random player but I've got enough certifications and years in IT to tell you that you're wrong. The post you keep linking is correct. It's the way the game handles input. Once the server receives your command to move it moves, not before. If your connection isn't fast enough/close enough/being bottlenecked somewhere that's why you're seeing yourself get hit when you're outside the red ring.
It's impossible to send data from one point to another instantly, hence the .3mms. The problem is magnified when your connection can't get the info to the server that fast. -
11-18-2013, 12:30 AMKeveeHere's the simple fact: Multiple people do not have this issue in other MMOs. I'm NA, and I have this issue in FFXIV. My ISP is fine. I have played many other MMOs with no problem, but I would like to continue playing FFXIV. This simply won't be possible, with current fight design, and this issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
It's their issue. It's something they've done/setup that is different from all other MMOs that is causing the problem. Not mine. -
11-18-2013, 01:39 AMHumsterMKXI think you misunderstood the .3sec part. The server only checks on us every .3sec. Which means, .3sec it checks on us, the data goes to the server, which will also take sometime, then it updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
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11-18-2013, 02:17 AMSoukyuuFalse. The speed is not the problem, latency is. If you're an IT person, you should know that MMOs don't even need more than a few KB/s most of the time. Latency and packet loss is what amplifies the issue. If even NA players are having it, and fromwaht I hear, some JP as well, then there has to be something wrong, especially when it does not happen with games hosted similarly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
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11-18-2013, 02:22 AMNaelle
You guys are right, SE is conspiring against you. I'm leaving this thread as it's just 50 pages of "Hell hath no fury...".
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11-18-2013, 02:25 AMSoukyuu
I bet my legacy status, you'd be one of us if it concerned you.
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11-18-2013, 04:40 AMKeybladeYou do release not matter how much hate this game gets its still badQuote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
The Devs dont know how to fix there server delay issue of .3 seconds
Not to mention they refuse to shorten the cast time.
Liek i was to play a game with responsive fast combat , and have my instacast skills actually instacast. Not wait 1 second for the silly animation ( THATS NOT INSTANT IS IT )
The Devs have put to much effort into the actually animation going off and not gameplay.
Not to mention this game feels rushed as they dont know how to fix the problem on Noone doing anything but speedruns on AK/WP -
11-18-2013, 05:47 AMSunarieExcept no one was saying SE is conspiring against anyone. They just made poor programming choices early on that intensify/highlight latency fluctuations and packet loss instead of compensating/hiding them like every other MMO that's come out in the past decade. That is an issue, regardless of how much certain individuals (there are probably about 5) seem to want to blame the player's ISP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
I'll say this bit again. If lag/latency alone cause people to get hit by AOEs they were out of, then this issue would be present in every single MMO on the market. It's not, because that isn't the cause. It aggravates it, but isn't the root cause.
Also, I did not say you were uneducated. I am saying you're ignoring a blatantly glaring problem and not reading the many well-thought out posts, and research people have done. Which I believe is more willful ignorance just because you don't perceive a problem on your end. -
11-18-2013, 06:04 AMAstarica
FF14 is basically reinventing the wheel, except the FF14 wheel is also a square. The average MMORPG fan has far better knowledge about a MMORPG's netcode by the virtue of the fact that the average MMORPG has played many MMORPG where the netcode is not an issue at all. Suppose you are hired to design the netcode for the next big MMORPG. You'd probably say like: "Okay find someone who worked on WoW before and ask him how it's done". If no one from WoW is available you can try another MMOPRG, and assuming you played a decent number of MMORPGs it'd be pretty easy to eventually find some guy who worked on a MMORPG you played before that has acceptable netcode, and you'd have a workable game.
It should be obvious this is not how FF14's netcode is built, because there are no MMORPG that's quite like it (I guess people say it's like FF11, but in that case no other MMORPG ever had a netcode like FF11 either). While innovation isn't bad, there's a reason why we don't constantly reinvent the wheel, and certainly we don't invent the wheel into a square one. -
11-18-2013, 08:12 AMTirionCreyYou are just full of...Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
Years of IT doesn't make you an expert in anything. The issue lies on SEs end, not on the customer. It may be worse for some over others, based on their location...doesn't change the fact that this should not be an issue at all, no matter from where you are connecting to the servers. Not to mention that I have yet to play an MMORPG that has the same problem. MMORPGs from back in 1999 did a better job at this, then SE does right now...
You denying that doesn't make it any less true. -
11-18-2013, 08:36 AMHumsterMKX
I fear for is game now even more.. the level of white knighting have dropped... once flak comes, instance GG.
That means the really good white knights have left the gsme :( -
11-18-2013, 12:55 PMStench
I got killed standing behind the stone in Garuda. Ran, stood, then bang... Flattened.
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11-18-2013, 11:28 PMKraggyKor
Still need an answer SE.
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11-18-2013, 11:38 PMTupsiAnd I'll say this again - Until someone can state that this is a universal problem while ignoring that plenty of people don't have this issue and some that did have this problem alleviated it by getting a new router, contacting their ISP or upgrading their machines, you can't ignore the possibility of there being an end-user issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunarie
There's a lot of "No it's not me, it's SE! Netcode! FFXIV! Servers!" but so very little of "I tried x!, I tried y!" I mean, how is it that without changing my router or ISP packages that I went from having issues like this to no issues simply by upgrading my PC..? Wouldn't what you and most others in this topic state mean that my issues still should have persisted with that full upgrade I did..?
We have to face facts, as much as we want to believe it simply can't be an issue on the end-user side, there's a lot of variables, because I wouldn't see people dodge stuff ever if it's solely on the shoulders of SE. Fyi, you keep ignoring that most other MMOs don't have their data considered as P2P, which once again, many ISPs throttle and XIV's data has been determined by many iSPs as "P2P (Torrent)" type traffic. There's a problem that exists, but as much as people want to spout:
"You're ignoring this is a real issue"
People still seem to ignore there's the possibility there's an issue on your end somewhere when it comes to this game specifically. I know my old PC was very old, I wasn't even over the 56mb traffic wired let alone wireless, so could my new motherboard or GPU have solved my "get hit out of red ring" issue? Or did SE just flip a switch and decide I can suddenly dodge stuff now? Variables. -
11-18-2013, 11:39 PMSomeonewithclap
Neither myself or any people I play with have an issue with this.
Not a single person has an issue in my FC, who has 4 groups on T5. -
11-18-2013, 11:47 PMVersirothHonestly, good for you guys. But, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for a lot of people. This is going to cost some people spots in raid groups. If I can't get into end game groups because I keep getting hit by AOEs out side of the damage area, then why pay for the game once I finish the story?Quote:
Originally Posted by Someonewithclap
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11-18-2013, 11:51 PMTupsiAnd no one says it doesn't exist - The problem is the people with the problem simply choose to believe it's a problem with SE/Game only and it absolutely can't be an issue on their end somewhere. By "their end" either what you use to play the game or your ISP or some other middleman. Thing is, Ms Eara there wouldn't be able to dodge anything nor anyone in her FC if there was a definitely source of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versiroth
Like I've said, a game doesn't selective work for some people and choose not to for others without there being a variable to decide: "I think I want to malfunction for you :)" -
11-19-2013, 12:03 AMVersirothWell, asking tons of people to do a bunch of upgrades when the game works perfectly fine with everything else is not a good way to keep customers. My connection shows as excellent, the game runs flawlessly with everything maxed (even when there are 50+ people on the screen during fates). Spending hundreds to "maybe" eliminate this issue is not an option for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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11-19-2013, 12:06 AMKeveeBecause EVERYONE is affected by it, just by varying degrees. You aren't not effected by it, it's just not something you can notice on your end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
And no, it's not our problems. When I can fire up Rift/WAR/Aion/Tera/GW2/Diablo 3/LoL and have zero problems, ever, then it is something SE has done differently. -
11-19-2013, 12:16 AMBixbyFor many people who meet the minimum system requirements, or who play on the PS3, FATE bosses don't load once the FATE becomes crowded enough. For people with hardware far enough over the minimum requirements, this is not a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
This is not those players' problem. It is SE's. The game is broken for those players. It should not be.
It is entirely possible for a game to be broken for certain segments of its players and not others. It is also entirely possible for the problems causing the breakage to not be those players' responsibility. It happens constantly. That's why there are bug fixes. That's why most of the bug fixes you'll ever see listed affect "certain players" or occur in "certain circumstances."
Yes, there are some issues that players can and should alleviate. But you seem to be just as much in denial that this could be SE's problem as anyone else is that it could be their own. -
11-19-2013, 12:16 AMTupsihttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...P2P-throttlingQuote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Pretty sure SE wouldn't have requested this information for awhile now if there's zero possibility (as you just stated) of it being on our side. SE doesn't run our ISPs, yet it's known ISPs throttle P2P traffic which some reported affect their XIV gameplay. The only thing differently SE did was their packet handling and client design, which as we've proven is way more open than it should be.
Considering a full PC upgrade fixed my issues with this? It's not 'denial', it's the simple fact in my personal experience it's clear there's more variables than: "It's SE's fault." In my upgrade I didn't even change manufacturers, using newer parts by the same people. Nor did I touch my ISP package or modem/router.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixby
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11-19-2013, 12:23 AMKeveeLet me bold it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
Thanks for agreeing with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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11-19-2013, 12:27 AMTupsiYet there's still plenty of us without the issue which is why they're investigating this. It's already been known SE built XIV differently, no one has ever said otherwise because all throughout 1.x Yoshi went on and on about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-19-2013, 12:32 AMKeveeQuote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Yoshida himself said the issue would be fixed, and it isn't.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/107...-Transcription
Post #18 here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...xed-ASAP/page2
And then how about this thread in the accepted bugs forum:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-everybody%29
You're putting your head in the sand because you, personally, can't see it. Good for you, it's going to pop up at one time or another because it effects everyone. Do you pre-move out of WotL in titan? Have the phases memorized? Have you done twintania? Moved during the last ~.5s of a cast and still completed it?
Go online, right now, and cast a spell while moving. Does the cast bar pop up, and does part of it start to cast? You do have the problem. I have not met a single person that could not see a cast bar pop up, and part of it cast, while moving. -
11-19-2013, 12:32 AMBixbyI your original hardware met the minimum requirements, it's not an upgrade that should have been necessary. If the game does not function correctly with the hardware it's advertised to work with, that is not the user's problem. It is SE's. The fact that you elected to buy your way out of the broken segment of the population does not mean that there is no broken segment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
You claim it's impossible for the game to be broken for some people but not others. That's a ridiculous claim. Games are constantly, routinely broken for only certain people. -
11-19-2013, 12:41 AMTupsiExactly. Isn't that pretty much what variables you'd have to consider being other than, "it's not my fault"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixby
That's the thing - On my old PC I could play XIV 1.x no problem (aside the obvious design issues), but ARR? Nothing but issues in the regard of this situation. So I got my fiance to build me a brand new pc and poof - every problem I had with ARR vanished. If I told him to go part by part I could have pinpointed it, but I know the most noticable upgrade was my Network Hardware (new mobo) and new GPU. The CPU was actually a "downgrade" if you believe the whole Intel > AMD.Quote:
If your original hardware met the minimum requirements, it's not an upgrade that should have been necessary.
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11-19-2013, 01:07 AMEisah
The dance-style combat is broken for me. I've been hit by an AOE from across the room.
No, I DON'T have a great computer. But if the game runs on it I should be able to play.
The thing that gets me is there is no other option. I can't say, "This part is an issue for me, so I'll change to a different job and still get to contribute." In FFXI, I could stay off the front lines as WHM and I could throw up Stoneskin and Blink.
In FFXIV you dance or die. There is no job I can play where I can avoid this glaring issue, and it's not like FFXI where something goes wrong but I can hold out. These things are often insta-kill situations.
The first dungeons were so much fun where using my actual class abilities could get us out of a bind. The further end-game it gets the more it gets to all look alike. "Dodge the skills or you die, the game".
I want my job abilities to be what makes the difference, not whether I can afford hundreds of dollars in upgrades for my computer.