CBU3. Please respect your players.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

My dear lala, deflecting this back to me doesn't help your case in any way when you immediately launched into a bad-faith attack the very next line:



Mayhaps people will be inclined to take you more seriously when you stop posting on the forums for the sake of "gotcha"-ing other people, as you've done across practically every subforum/board in the OF at this point. As has been repeated ad infinitum at this point: the TOP healerless clear is a symptom of a major design flaw, it's not the flaw itself. Of course, bad faith arguments tend to laser focus on people using that example to illustrate the scope of the problem because it's the easiest way to "gotcha" instead of engaging in, with good faith, a discussion of the myriad problems with healer design.

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The bad faith argument is that healers are obsolete.

99.9% of the player base will never be able to clear an Ultimate without a healer in the party. That something can be done by the top of the elite does not mean that everyone is capable of doing it let alone is doing it.

Again, if people want to claim that healers are obsolete then they need to prove that it can be done by anyone and the logical place to start is with themselves.

So start playing without healers and see how deep into content you manage to get before you realize that they are still necessary.

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Originally Posted by R041

Every time someone replies to feedback and tries to discredit someone, they usually respond back harder. That's how this goes. So here's some more feedback so we can do this forever and ever.

XVI plays itself. Just like XIV
XVI doesn't have gradual difficulty. It's either on or off. Just like XIV
You have to beat the game to get even remotely difficult content. Just like XIV
The pacing is off, and story keeps going from grand epic to dull filler. Just like XIV
The RPG elements are completely gone. Just like XIV
It's a walking and fetch simulator with hours of cutscenes between. Just like XIV
Gil is worthless. Just like XIV
The world is barren and has no reason to explore. Just like XIV
There's way too much constant exposition about everything. Just like XIV
There are a lot of really cool systems, but all of them are half-baked. Just like XIV
The highs are as high as the lows are low. Just like XIV

I can talk about my pros too, but this is basically bait

7/10 game


I have a lot I love about XVI, but I'm not gonna sit here and lie about how I'm having the greatest time ever, that there's nothing wrong, CBU:III is perfect. Nah.. XVI heavily suffers from CBU:III syndrome.

So on brand, really. lol

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Much of that makes it sound like the actual flaw with CBU3 is their inability to create midcore difficulty content and failure to add meaningful exploration opportunities to the open world.

That I wouldn't argue against. I know there had been hopes that Criterion might fill that void but Sil'dihn Subterrane turned into yet another it's either easy on Variant, very difficult on Criterion or extremely difficult on Criterion Savage but can't figure out how to design it for in between.

As for exploring, I would love those opportunities as well. Finding out why they don't put a little more effort in that area would be nice.

One question: what do you mean by "RPG elements are gone"? I see RPG elements all over the place in FFXIV and many from what I've seen in the FFXVI streams. RPG isn't a super narrowly defined set of design choices. It starts from a base - playing a role within the game's story/lore then expands from there. What's appropriate in one game may not be needed or appropriate in another.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The bad faith argument is that healers are obsolete.

99.9% of the player base will never be able to clear an Ultimate without a healer in the party. That something can be done by the top of the elite does not mean that everyone is capable of doing it let alone is doing it.

Again, if people want to claim that healers are obsolete then they need to prove that it can be done by anyone and the logical place to start is with themselves.

So start playing without healers and see how deep into content you manage to get before you realize that they are still necessary.

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It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

A lot of people around these parts seem unable to comprehend that. I loathe healing, so I don't do it myself - but I'm not the 'got mine, screw you' type of guy so I don't spend my every waking moment trying to deflect criticism from those who are passionate about the role.

Much in the same way as how I can be lucky enough to own a large house but still criticise the dire state of the housing system on behalf of my friends who do not own a house.

It was incredibly tone deaf for Yoshi-P to dismiss legitimate concerns raised by healers with 'go play ultimate' and no amount of '...what he really meant, was...' will change that. Especially when players are proving that even current content can be completed with minimal or no healers due to the bizarre decision to give non-healer roles ridiculous amounts of self healing/damage mitigation.

To say nothing of the fact that many players only really care about one specific type of role in the first place, given how personal preferences work.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Much of that makes it sound like the actual flaw with CBU3 is their inability to create midcore difficulty content and failure to add meaningful exploration opportunities to the open world.

That I wouldn't argue against. I know there had been hopes that Criterion might fill that void but Sil'dihn Subterrane turned into yet another it's either easy on Variant, very difficult on Criterion or extremely difficult on Criterion Savage but can't figure out how to design it for in between.

As for exploring, I would love those opportunities as well. Finding out why they don't put a little more effort in that area would be nice.

One question: what do you mean by "RPG elements are gone"? I see RPG elements all over the place in FFXIV and many from what I've seen in the FFXVI streams. RPG isn't a super narrowly defined set of design choices. It starts from a base - playing a role within the game's story/lore then expands from there. What's appropriate in one game may not be needed or appropriate in another.

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Jojo, it was bait. I think I only really consider 2 of those things actual problems to me specifically. lol

I won't get too into the 'RPG' stuff, especially with XIV - That discussion is exhausting. We all know that. But Character ability collaboration, ability reaction that isn't just a form of shield. More active class interaction with the world and dungeons. Less about text, more about action. (I still like the dance tho)

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Much of that makes it sound like the actual flaw with CBU3 is their inability to create midcore difficulty content and failure to add meaningful exploration opportunities to the open world.

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I think yeah, that basically boils it down. It's not that 'hard' doesn't exist. I just died a few times on Normal Mode actually. It's also weird they even bothered with equipment with stats. If XVI ONLY had rings, that'd be way better. It just seems like sometimes they spend time on things they know are just throwaway, if that makes sense.

But I'm having a lot of fun after the 50% mark in XVI, the game unfortunately still has a few visible issues I wish were ironed out. Almost wish I'd have waited for maybe a balance update.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

A lot of people around these parts seem unable to comprehend that. I loathe healing, so I don't do it myself - but I'm not the 'got mine, screw you' type of guy so I don't spend my every waking moment trying to deflect criticism from those who are passionate about the role.

Much in the same way as how I can be lucky enough to own a large house but still criticise the dire state of the housing system on behalf of my friends who do not own a house.

It was incredibly tone deaf for Yoshi-P to dismiss legitimate concerns raised by healers with 'go play ultimate' and no amount of '...what he really meant, was...' will change that. Especially when players are proving that even current content can be completed with minimal or no healers due to the bizarre decision to give non-healer roles ridiculous amounts of self healing/damage mitigation.

To say nothing of the fact that many players only really care about one specific type of role in the first place, given how personal preferences work.

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Healing isn't in a great spot right now. I think everyone can agree on that. I do however feel that people seem to forget that during the ARR - HW - SB era, we use to get a lot of threads on these forums from people being upset that they had to dps as a healer because they wanted to only heal. We're in the exact same spot now but on the opposite side of the argument. It's a bit of a lose lose situation tbh. The difference is that Yoshi-P is actually in favor of that PoV which is why healing was gutted. To him it made sense. We also had a much bigger shortage of healer because healing was harder back then. Wither we like it or not, there are more healers today than back then. Even if healing isn't at all fun to play. It's a sad reality fact that easier jobs are simply more attractive to a large amount of people even if those jobs are horribly unengaging and boring. Laziness will always triumph even if it sacrifices entertainment. But now that we have reached a point where healers aren't even needed to heal, we have fallen so far down the hill.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

A lot of people around these parts seem unable to comprehend that. I loathe healing, so I don't do it myself - but I'm not the 'got mine, screw you' type of guy so I don't spend my every waking moment trying to deflect criticism from those who are passionate about the role.

Much in the same way as how I can be lucky enough to own a large house but still criticise the dire state of the housing system on behalf of my friends who do not own a house.

It was incredibly tone deaf for Yoshi-P to dismiss legitimate concerns raised by healers with 'go play ultimate' and no amount of '...what he really meant, was...' will change that. Especially when players are proving that even current content can be completed with minimal or no healers due to the bizarre decision to give non-healer roles ridiculous amounts of self healing/damage mitigation.

To say nothing of the fact that many players only really care about one specific type of role in the first place, given how personal preferences work.

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Gosh I hate quoting on mobile.

Regarding "Go play ultimates", I've cleared two ultimates as a healer (soon to be working on a third). Very very few parts of them were at all related to healing mechanics (J-waves and throttle in TEA were like the only ones in that fight). YoshiP saying that is so frustratingly disingenuous when barely anything even has anything to with actually being a healer and more to do with getting targeted by specific mechanics. I'm sorry but moving to a specific spot because I got a marker over my head is NOT a healer mechanic. I don't have the hateboner for the guy that some people do, but freaking hell he frustrates me to no end with these crappy takes he spouts off.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Healing isn't in a great spot right now. I think everyone can agree on that. I do however feel that people seem to forget that during the ARR - HW - SB era, we use to get a lot of threads on these forums from people being upset that they had to dps as a healer because they wanted to only heal. We're in the exact same spot now but on the opposite side of the argument. It's a bit of a lose lose situation tbh. The difference is that Yoshi-P is actually in favor of that PoV which is why healing was gutted. To him it made sense. We also had a much bigger shortage of healer because healing was harder back then. Wither we like it or not, there are more healers today than back then. Even if healing isn't at all fun to play. It's a sad reality fact that easier jobs are simply more attractive to a large amount of people even if those jobs are horribly unengaging and boring. Laziness will always triumph even if it sacrifices entertainment. But now that we have reached a point where healers aren't even needed to heal, we have fallen so far down the hill.

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Imo, most of the problems were because cleric stance punished you hard if you didn't use it, and punished you hard if you used it wrong. Naturally some would still be due to focus style- but that is why I think if they split the healers along the line of offensive and defensive support that could be a good spot.

Scholar would return to its more original flavor, Sage would receive more offensive kardia heal spells and Kardia mechanics, maybe offensive heals (target enemy has X potency prevented from being allocated to players). White mage would gain many party buffs, perhaps the opposite of Sage with more defend and damage while Sage is attack and defend (say stoneskin, damage at expiration or when broken- small skill potency bonus for if broken). Astrologian gaining further card effects, if time mage healer isn't going to happen give them some time based buffs back (can still have time effects for other jobs, if they wanted a time mage). Use X potency for buffs and debuffs for easier time balancing, like enstone adds X potency to every attack and y potency shield - deals up to Z damage (in this way you can have expectations). Have buffing based jobs have stronger buff effects on self when party is dead / solo (like basic instinct, which will ensure the defensive support healers don't feel like wet noodles outside of party play).

Damage naturally attempted to be roughly similar, when all the chips lay out. Can include things like force popping stoneskin (cast it on a player, then the ability changes to detonate- which might have its own skill related rewards like the closer to fully used up will provide better results and will be useful when a boss transition approaches).

Personally given how deep we are in certain design decisions and the culture already developed, I feel, that we are never going to see healers in a place where healing can effectively be their primary / only focus. As soon as they force it, it's either temporary or significantly complained about lol. As an aside people who loved old Scholar were pretty vocal on that. I think just giving healers more tasks while still having potent healing abilities when needed is the best route, imo. If you want to be a battle healer, SCH, SGE, where you will mostly target the enemy, and if you want to be the team's wings and cheerleader, WHM, and AST.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

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I'm not trying to argue that healing design is a great place and doesn't need help.

I'm pointing out that there is still a use for healers in the game. For healers to be obsolete, they would have to be completely useless across the entirety of the game for all players regardless of skill level.

They are not obsolete. That is being said in bad faith.

They are in need of better design choices.

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Originally Posted by R041

I think yeah, that basically boils it down. It's not that 'hard' doesn't exist. I just died a few times on Normal Mode actually. It's also weird they even bothered with equipment with stats. If XVI ONLY had rings, that'd be way better. It just seems like sometimes they spend time on things they know are just throwaway, if that makes sense.

But I'm having a lot of fun after the 50% mark in XVI, the game unfortunately still has a few visible issues I wish were ironed out. Almost wish I'd have waited for maybe a balance update.

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I'd say that "throwaway things" are part of every RPG, MMO or not. There has to be the carrot to drive players onward and one of the carrots is the need to feel like we are more/better than how we started.

That there's a balance problem with FFXVI's "throwaway things" is evident. Being a single player game with all character progression effectively linear, there's no point in introducing weaker equipment only after the player has received better from the main story quests. It only makes sense in a MMO, where there will be other characters who can use that weaker gear even if the receiving player doesn't, or if the single player game allows the character to have multiple jobs that are leveled independently.

I am glad to hear it's gotten a lot more fun for you. It demonstrates some of the things that Josh Strife Hayes has said in one of his videos: a game will have a hard time keeping a player's interest if it doesn't get good in the player's eyes until after they've invested 20+ hours. But I think that's also a side effect of a game wanting to attract new players who have no previous experience with combat content. Those players need to be gradually introduced to various game concepts that a veteran gamer would already be familiar with or would at least have no problem figuring out the intent.

Should that mean that a hard mode is available from the start in every game? I don't think that's necessarily true depending on what the game is going to require for hard mode.

But what should be standard is a comprehensive tutorial scenario for those who are completely new to games that involve combat or for those that would prefer having an introduction to game specifics or the opportunity to get used to controls before being placed into the middle of action. Players could then choose to start at the tutorial or at the main game. And there should be a way to exit or re-enter the tutorial as the player decides they need. Making the tutorial part an unskippable part of the main game ends up causing a lot of dissatisfaction in those who really don't need it.

FFXIV would have benefitted from something like that. Imagine if as a veteran player, your character started at the point where you join the Scions instead of having to complete the starting area and then the first 3 dungeons. Those sections of the game really are a tutorial and do little to support the actual story of the game. The Ifrit section is also a little on the weak side for veteran gamers but I'd say it's still needed because that's where the real story starts (with the demonstration of the primal threat).

It will be interesting to see how the promised new starting point for new characters gets handled once it's introduced (hopefully with 7.0).

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Wither we like it or not, there are more healers today than back then.

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This is not true. If we have much more healers than ever before now, why was Yoshi P asked in the 8th 14-hour broadcast Q&A about a healer shortage? Why did he have to ask people to give healers a try if there's so many healers around?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I'm not trying to argue that healing design is not in a great place.

I'm pointing out that there is still a use for healers in the game. For healers to be obsolete, they would have to be completely useless across the entirety of the game for all players regardless of skill level.

They are not obsolete. That is being said in bad faith.

They are in need of better design choices.

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To be fair, if a warrior is in the party, and possibly gunbreaker or paladin, healers are absolutely obsolete in dungeons. Just did an expert last night with a warrior tank, the only heals I gave the tank were a single pre-pull shield and my kardia props. That's it. I felt extremely useless *in the highest dungeon roulette*. He wasn't even exceptionally geared either, he just properly pressed his buttons. It actively makes me miss WoW dungeons, the healer was almost always needed there, especially in mythic dungeons where they HAVE to heal and dps both.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

This is not true. If we have much more healers than ever before now, why was Yoshi P asked in the 8th 14-hour broadcast Q&A about a healer shortage? Why did he have to ask people to give healers a try if there's so many healers around?

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This is a strawman argument. A shortage of healers doesn't disprove more people play healer today than we did back then. Shortage in this context means least played job, which is naturally going to happen when DPS is disproportionate in total number of jobs vs Tanks and Healers. Let alone the amount of responsibility those jobs have in a party. White Mage is actually one of the most played jobs in the game according to the fan made census. By comparison, the shortage is in the other three healers that are not White Mage. There are multiple reasons for this. Conjurer being the only level 1 healer, White Mage having the job fantasy, White Mage being braindead in general. What we need is more of those White Mages to play some the other healing jobs.
Lastly, there are more people playing the game today than back then. So it's a fact that more people are playing healer than they were 6 years ago even if healing is still in a shortage.