They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

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Originally Posted by hagare

The good argument against it is that people are dicks.
And I say this as someone who wants it so I can check my rotation performance

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Yes, and they will be regardless of features put into the game.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that Yoshi's true reason for saying that is simply because they don't want to waste time & resource dealing with the reports regarding the matter so they just took a measure to completely shut off the subject.

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That's pretty much it honestly.
Legit i'd like a personal damage etc to see aside looking at the battle logs. I also know how you can have an idea of how much damage through phases\moves and enrage. Even for casual content it's not hard to see but i just like seeing numbers and see overall performance, nothing special.

But of all that is just opening a big can of worms that is not worth the headache to everyone

What's wrong with the current official battle logs that's been in the game since launch? They tell you everything you wish to know.

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Originally Posted by Capstone

The trickle down effect of Yoshida's stance is that casual players are often very aggressive when offered basic advice on how to improve and, by extension, make the group's experience better. You can't ask anyone to do better in this game without releasing the "you don't pay my sub" kraken.

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That's because they are not playing the game to optimize. They are playing the game to have fun, relax or enjoy the story. Just because you play for a different reason than they do doesn't mean that you should push that onto them. The only content where they need to be concerned about optimizing is fights with an enrage and advice in those fights is reasonable.

There could be any number of other reasons why somebody is not playing the way you think they should. It might be intentional because they disagree with you, they might be having a bad day and have just made a mistake or they are just relaxing leveling an alt job they don't normally play.

I've never seen anyone say "you don't pay my sub" seriously.

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Originally Posted by Capstone

Is it harassment I wonder when someone's application to a static is rejected because the 3rd party data collected about their character reveals quite plainly that they are dead weight? How about when the PF group disbands because even though nobody died enrage still didn't get cleared?

So much of this discussion is quite clearly not "people will use dps numbers to harass others" but actually "people will use dps numbers to harass me"

For all of the turbocasuals gleefully going "sucks to be you because Yoshida agrees with meeeeeeee" it really makes me think:

If anyone thinks that casuals can't be toxic about the fact that their damage is hidden, all I can say is think again. Being dead weight and proud of it or refusing to improve when constructive feedback is provided is toxic behavior. Making everyone else's life miserable absolutely counts. And we have also seen weilding the ToS as a weapon as certain sites have gone on mass reporting brigades of streamers.

Anyway, I've given up on doing roulettes without at a minimum the tank and healer being raid buddies, if not the whole stack being premade ideally. If I didn't need tomes for the tier I would skip them entirely, given that option. The trickle down effect of Yoshida's stance is that casual players are often very aggressive when offered basic advice on how to improve and, by extension, make the group's experience better. You can't ask anyone to do better in this game without releasing the "you don't pay my sub" kraken. That's what dps meters are about. It was never about harassment.

But worry not. If anyone is worried that high-end players will harass you about bad damage, you can rest easy. They don't want to play with you any more than you want to play with them, and to a very large degree they have the agency to ensure that outcome.

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Well that kind of attitude is pretty much why Yoshi does not want to add official parsers in game. If people respond like this without one added, imagine if it was added...

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Originally Posted by hagare

The good argument against it is that people are dicks.

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This is relevant only if parsers would cause people to be dicks when they otherwise wouldn't, or that blinding people to their performance would somehow stop them from questioning others' performance when shit hits the fan (e.g., a DPS check is failed). Yet there is no evidence to suggest either is the case.

(In reality, it merely tends to shift the question merely from "What can we do to improve it" (locked behind these layers of blindfolds first from no sanctioned data and second from even eyeballed knowledge being threatenable with reports) to, first, what can be improved. It simply adds a prior, and arguably far more humiliating, step to the original one, or replaces solutions with disbandment.)

(Can't get called out for having potentially parsed if your solution to the problem is just to replace everyone and roll the dice again, after all. At least it's not "discriminatory" or likely to be reportable if you waste 8 players' time instead of helping the one in need. Modern grey-area solutions for modern blindfolded-under-threat-of-ban problems.)

A possible restriction could be to only have it active on extreme and up difficulty levels, maybe target dummies aswell. I've always found it laughable that fflogs lists expert dungeons and alliance raids.

Otherwise I would say the current solution works fine. Toxic idiots (hardcore and casual players alike) cant use it to be jerk and everyone else can use it responsibily. Console players just need one person in the group to occasionally upload and they have access to all the same info.

Yoshi has and will always be against parsers given he seen what it can cause given he was an avid WoW player. He has never once changed his stance on it and I honestly do not know why people keep trying to change his mind.

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Originally Posted by Zachia

If people didn't abuse dps meter add-ons in other MMORPG's

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Please exemplify? I've seen far more toxicity over throughput in this game than across 13 years of WoW, in GW2, in NWN, B&S, etc., all games with performance metrics.

At best, the toxicity in XIV simply sometimes gets hidden by parties just disbanding when they get someone clearly underperforming/underprepared, rather than daring to offer advice on anything even tangentially to do with throughput for fear of being called out for parsing -- essentially wasting 7 extra people's time in requeuing, of all things, instead of even helping someone out. As someone who likes helping out in learning parties, etc., that state of things really sucks.


Heck, the last time I've had someone pulling well under their own weight in M+ (over in WoW), we stayed for a couple extra keys on our alts, postponing play on our mains, until he'd gotten a feel for how to manage throughput as melee even when the tank needs to kite (due to the Necrotic Affix). He didn't have a parser downloaded at the moment and just asked us to post numbers, for boss and overall, after each checkpoint, so we did, and gave class-specific pointers where we could while between fights (and on any wipes) and between runs.

Being informed =/= Being toxic. There's no part of being an ass, even, that's facilitated or encouraged by having a better grasp of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That's because they are not playing the game to optimize. They are playing the game to have fun, relax or enjoy the story. Just because you play for a different reason than they do doesn't mean that you should push that onto them. The only content where they need to be concerned about optimizing is fights with an enrage and advice in those fights is reasonable.

There could be any number of other reasons why somebody is not playing the way you think they should. It might be intentional because they disagree with you, they might be having a bad day and have just made a mistake or they are just relaxing leveling an alt job they don't normally play.

I've never seen anyone say "you don't pay my sub" seriously.

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No one seriously asks for high end optimization either. When I see someone only use cure 1 and medica in lvl 70 content I can clearly see that they dont give a fck about anyone else. They're just selfish. No one seriously cares if your buffs are always drifting a little bit but if you never use them, that just shows you dont care. What people like the person you quoted want is for everyone to try their best because this is a teamgame. And a lot of people are not and that ranges from someone having a bad day and messing up mechanics left and right all the way down to functionally being afk. To be fair however you dont need a parser to see that most of the time.