Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Which would be fine... if I wasn't done with content within a week or two. In fact, I did take a break throughout Verse after clearing the tier; logging in only to cap and doing literally nothing else. When I came back, I finished up all of 5.3's content by the weekend. So even with a break, there just wasn't enough. The problem is longevity. Content simply doesn't have a long enough life cycle unless you play very sparingly.

And Drakonic brings up the other problem. I can't unsub without losing my house. So the whole "take a break" aspect is a nice PR spin but not exactly feasible.

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I mean that’s still a choice you are making (to have a house/keep sub/etc). There are relics to get, alts you could level. Redecorate your house. There’s so much content you could do if you wanted to. If it’s not working, you can still just play other games and keep the sub up.

I think the exact opposite( lost the guy I was quoting but it was in endorsement of FF13 style corridor dungeons). I like the immersion and the exploration. I get that once you've done it 50 times and you just want to get your roulette done people will take the shortest route but the first few times is a blast and having the option to go down multiple branching paths makes it feel like an actual dungeon.

My fave dungeons are the ARR hard mode ones still. I hate the brain dead corridors of new expacs. It's nothing to do with difficulty it just feels like an actual dungeon and not a set peice in a video game to check off a required content box. Heck Paglrthrn however you spell it. Claimed to be in Southern Thalanan they were sooo lazy they used the Redrock tile set from the zones in the first.... not even the right tileset with yellow sand and cacti they have become so lazy.

Run down a corridor fight 3 boses rinse repeat. Wait we're on the moon now better make it repeated grey rock textures.

Hard Mode Dungeons > ARR Dungeons > HW/SB Dungeons > SHB Dungeons.

Relict is the worst dungeon created so far.
You literally go down a straight line sometimes with a turn, get teleported back to the original straight line to teleport to another straight line, repeat x3 so you can finally completely run down the original straight line.
When a level 80 dungeon is only slightly less of a chore than a level 16 dungeon you've done something wrong.
Tam Tara Deepcroft?
Tam Tara Leavecroft.

I miss the days where you could pull mobs directly up to the first boss in ARR HM dungeons, but that's not inclusive and creates a toxic environment.
So instead we section off every 3 mob packs to make things as boring as possible so you don't feel bad for not being good at the game.
Oh my bad that was the HW/SB treatment, now in SHB we do that and make the mobs hit like a wet noodle so even if you don't understand how any of your buttons work you'll finish the dungeon... Eventually.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Which would be fine... if I wasn't done with content within a week or two. In fact, I did take a break throughout Verse after clearing the tier; logging in only to cap and doing literally nothing else. When I came back, I finished up all of 5.3's content by the weekend. So even with a break, there just wasn't enough. The problem is longevity. Content simply doesn't have a long enough life cycle unless you play very sparingly.

And Drakonic brings up the other problem. I can't unsub without losing my house. So the whole "take a break" aspect is a nice PR spin but not exactly feasible.

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I have to agree. I did the Eden stuff on normal when it came out since I didn't have much time to prog anything in E[x]s and normal was still fun to do but like two patches or so later even newish content that's not savage is an absolute joke if you mildly know what you're doing.

I usually try to do dungeons with my FC as min ilvl and that's so much more fun (mostly). Running away giggling from that giant tonberry in WP fills me with glee. haha

Why can't we have more challenging 4 man content? I have a raid Discord and we do stuff min ilvl regularly but finding 8 people obviously is harder than just finding 4. Some things I want to do spontaneously and not plan two or so days in advance. 4 mans would be great for that.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I have to agree. I did the Eden stuff on normal when it came out since I didn't have much time to prog anything in E[x]s and normal was still fun to do but like two patches or so later even newish content that's not savage is an absolute joke if you mildly know what you're doing.

I usually try to do dungeons with my FC as min ilvl and that's so much more fun (mostly). Running away giggling from that giant tonberry in WP fills me with glee. haha

Why can't we have more challenging 4 man content? I have a raid Discord and we do stuff min ilvl regularly but finding 8 people obviously is harder than just finding 4. Some things I want to do spontaneously and not plan two or so days in advance. 4 mans would be great for that.

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I wouldn’t mind more 4 man content. I like dungeons how they are, but something else like how PotD works…but maybe more involved, could be nice. Like with keys/locked doors. Essentially the chocobo dungeon mini game but for our actual characters. I guess something more akin to a dnd dungeon crawl..or old school arcade game Gauntlet than just a race to floor xxx.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I wouldn’t mind more 4 man content. I like dungeons how they are, but something else like how PotD works…but maybe more involved, could be nice. Like with keys/locked doors. Essentially the chocobo dungeon mini game but for our actual characters. I guess something more akin to a dnd dungeon crawl..or old school arcade game Gauntlet than just a race to floor xxx.

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So something like Haukke Manor maybe?

I get both sides of the argument. For people wanting real dungeons, the linear hallways are not very immersive. And for people wanting to grind for exp/tomestones, branching dungeons just waste time.

What I would propose is just splitting the content to appeal to both types. Have a category of "gauntlets" that just run you through bosses like a 24 man raid to grind for gear and exp. And then have a category of "dungeons" with unique, PotD type rewards (i.e. randomized loot locations, and nothing that contributes directly to main level/gear grinding) for people who just want to explore more. I think PotD/HoH were coming close to what players want, but imo they were kind of lacking in flavor/variety.

I fully agree with you but I think SE started making dungeons like this because relic weapons demanded such a huge amount of Tomes, and of course the community wanted dungeons to be done in less than 10 minutes. Having complexing dungeons eventually becomes tedious at the end.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

I fully agree with you but I think SE started making dungeons like this because relic weapons demanded such a huge amount of Tomes, and of course the community wanted dungeons to be done in less than 10 minutes. Having complexing dungeons eventually becomes tedious at the end.

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I'll never quite understand how people reach this conclusion.

All that matters in that regard is (A) how long the devs want the relevant relic requirements to take [not how many dungeons, but actual likely hours of time] and (B) dungeons' rewards per minute. That I get 100 tomes in 40 minutes is no different than getting 25 tomes in 10 minutes. They're both 2.5 tomes per minute. (Or, actually, due to queue times, I suppose the longer dungeons would then be more efficient for those without a premade party to spam them with.)

You wouldn't do the same number of dungeons if the dungeons took the average player twice as long. You'd do the half as many, amounting to the same total time.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

I fully agree with you but I think SE started making dungeons like this because relic weapons demanded such a huge amount of Tomes, and of course the community wanted dungeons to be done in less than 10 minutes. Having complexing dungeons eventually becomes tedious at the end.

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Dungeons were streamlined because it makes them easier to make. That's literally it, no hidden agendas. Shurrikhan already highlights why dungeon length is irrelevant to how it'd affect relic grinds.

Making an instance with a single straightforward path with 3-4 bosses is infinitely easier than deving a multi-path dungeon with 5+ bosses, effectively doubling or tripling the workload, especially when by all accounts, the playerbase has shown time and again when presented with multiple avenues, the playerbase will by far and large pick the quicker one. So they likely just decided "what's the point in making more complex dungeons when the players are just going to reduce them to -do x over y or z for quickest completion time- when we could focus on the aesthetics instead."

I've been complaining about that forever Topic Creator, I'm afraid nothing will change.

Even as far back as 2.0 needs quality of life, it bugs the hell out of me that monsters have mechanics that take too long to really do anything and destroy whatever challenge those things even have.

There is tutorial, and then there is too much rinse and repeat since 2.0

"oh look how cute that gobblydegook is going to use a cone AOE that takes 10 seconds" "warps behind it!"

"Nothing personnel kid!" SMACK

I feel bad for the mobs in this game, they just suck at everything.

Now the bosses are at least balanced though a couple could use some polishing.