Anyone else concerned by the extremely low skill ceiling?

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

Those raiders also have gotten better since then too so just comparing those results won't tell you the whole story. Point being that I don't think the game has gotten THAT easier since then, yeah we have a bunch of QOL things now but peoiple still wipe in dungeons, people still don't know how to hold hate, people still can't heal. And this is at a time where we have quite afew QOL skills now and people still fail.

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There will always be bad players in any game, but if we had harder content that forced people to learn how to play their class at an average level, they would strive to improve instead of facerolling the content.
Otherwise we will never have players that actually care about the gameplay of FFXIV, but rather just the story or the glamours.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

There will always be bad players in any game, but if we had harder content that forced people to learn how to play their class at an average level, they would strive to improve instead of facerolling the content.
Otherwise we will never have players that actually care about the gameplay of FFXIV, but rather just the story or the glamours.

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I don't think it would honestly. I just see them making fights harder and people quitting over being hard locked out. Maybe I'm that jaded but right now I can't even get into the best raids in the game - the lastest 24 mans- because people cheese them so they don't have to fight thundergod. Who isn't even that hard. But he's hard enough that people instant quit or cheese their ilvls so they never get it. Because of things like that it's hard for me to see the playerbase getting better when actual hard content gets drops. Maybe that 1% of the playerbase will but chances are the 99% will cry for nerfs like they always have and continue to do. Hell we got people saying the one extra combo on gunbreaker is too hard. Pressing buttons has gotten too hard.. we have reached THAT low now. So I guess I'm jaded, I wish I could go - the playerbase will improve with harder content- But I can't.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

people pugged cleared titan week 1. the average raider really does get their clears on the first month

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How does this prove the average raider beats savage in a month? Do you mean to say you assume that every pug is an average skilled player? I have met everything from the truly horrendous to the mindblowingly outstanding while pugging. It isn't only average skilled or less players who pug.

Replying to you again Wegentle as I don't want to give off the wrong idea. I kindof agree with you. I am just speaking from what I've seen on the forums/ reddit and ingame and from my own personal gaming in XIV. And if I'm completely honest.. I'm not anyway near where I want to be. I find a few things really hard that I know you and others will laugh at completely. For one... I all but given up on monk as I can't get over 11k DPS on dummies. I have no idea how to play MCH and I'm flat out scared to play Ninja and any healing class. The only difference from me to what I see is I don't cry for nerfs.. but I suck. And from my own experience I kindof like where we are right now. But that's the selfish part of me talking.

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Originally Posted by monk-dps

So I guess I'm jaded, I wish I could go - the playerbase will improve with harder content- But I can't.

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That's what happens when people get spoiled after years of being able to faceroll the content without putting effort into it.
Imagine if you could get away with only putting 10% of effort into your real life job. It would be really annoying to have to start committing to it eventually. Yet sacrifices must be made.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

How does this prove the average raider beats savage in a month? Do you mean to say you assume that every pug is an average skilled player? I have met everything from the truly horrendous to the mindblowingly outstanding while pugging. It isn't only average skilled or less players who pug.

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It's harder to clear stuff in pugs obviously, but i'm using statics as a metric because it's easier to gauge their performance since you have the same 8 people who play together on a regular basis.
What I'm saying is that if the average group took 500 hours to clear the raid back in pre-Creator days, nowadays it takes them 100. And that's proven by the fact that we have thousands more clears than we did back then, meaning the content DID get way easier and more accessible to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

That's what happens when people get spoiled after years of being able to faceroll the content without putting effort into it.
Imagine if you could get away with only putting 10% of effort into your real life job. It would be really annoying to have to start committing to it eventually. Yet sacrifices must be made.



It's harder to clear stuff in pugs obviously, but i'm using statics as a metric because it's easier to gauge their performance since you have the same 8 people who play together on a regular basis.
What I'm saying is that if the average group took 500 hours to clear the raid back in pre-Creator days, nowadays it takes them 100. And that's proven by the fact that we have thousands more clears than we did back then, meaning the content DID get way easier and more accessible to everyone.

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FFLOGS was a lot less used back then.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

FFLOGS was a lot less used back then.

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Are you implying there were way more clears back then as well? Are you saying that official data like this one is all false then?

https://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/Eorz...N_Census_L.png

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Originally Posted by Wegente

What I'm saying is that if the average group took 500 hours to clear the raid back in pre-Creator days, nowadays it takes them 100. And that's proven by the fact that we have thousands more clears than we did back then, meaning the content DID get way easier and more accessible to everyone.

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You're leaving out some very important points here. Pre-Creator days were totally different to now.

Back then actual raiders were not as common because the game was relatively new so the player population wasn't huge and typically in new games you don't have a wealth of experienced players. I wager most players who raided pre Creator had not raided at that level of difficulty before.

Fast forward to today, more expansions have passed since. Players have had far more time and opportunities to gain raid experience, the player population has risen significantly, and we also have an influx of WoW refugees potentially bringing 5+ years of raid experience with them into the game. On top of that SE have gotten better at making introductory raid content that eases players into the raiding scene, instead of something as overtuned as the first tier of Alex which must have fooled a lot of players into thinking they could never be raid material.

I don't think anyone should be surprised or dismayed that kill rates have increased when there are more players playing, more experienced players playing, and content is balanced in such a way that it draws in more potential raiders. It's a logical progress.

The way you talk reminds me so much of how I have seen many veteran WoW players talk. So many have this idea that the original raiding scene was incredibly difficult, when the fact is it was not compared to now. It was back then because most raiders never raided before WoW, and the idea of playing in such a way was not common in gaming at the time. When WoW's population was growing steadily with each expansion, the kill rate of bosses grew despite the fact that the content became more difficult.

An increase of kill-rate isn't necessarily a sign of content not being difficult enough. Sometimes it's simply a sign that the average skill of the playerbase has risen. Which is a perfectly normal thing to happen if enough time passes.

(and no I'm not saying Vanilla WoW raiding is comparable to Coils, because it is not. I am just pointing out that despite the fact that top-end content became far more difficult in WoW since Vanilla, kill rates increased as time passed)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I don't think anyone should be surprised or dismayed that kill rates have increased when there are more players playing, more experienced players playing, and content is balanced in such a way that it draws in more potential raiders. It's a logical progress.

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Raids in WoW still take a few weeks to complete nowadays. Sure, they're not taking months as they were back in the day and that's because, as you said, people have gotten better over the years, the game mechanics are better understood by the playerbase, etc.

Still, fights can be made harder regardless. Look at UCOB for example, the first group to clear it took 2 weeks, and that fight came out after Creator and Deltascape which both took less than 48 hours to clear.

What I'm asking for is a slight increase in difficulty, so that the more hardcore players can complete the raid in a week or so while the rest of the population can still clear before the release of the next tier.
That way we wouldn't have a huge population of raiders who only log in for their Savage clears on Tuesday and then log out for the rest of the week, or worse, unsub until the new patch get released, making SE lose potential money.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

Raids in WoW still take a few weeks to complete nowadays.

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WoW often has three times more bosses per raid tier than FFXIV. There are usually at least ten bosses each tier. FFXIV only has four bosses per raid tier, with the exception of one Coils tier that has five as far as I recall.

So yea of course it takes several weeks to complete a raid tier in WoW. There are significantly more bosses.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

What I'm asking for is a slight increase in difficulty, so that the more hardcore players can complete the raid in a week or so while the rest of the population can still clear before the release of the next tier.
That way we wouldn't have a huge population of raiders who only log in for their Savage clears on Tuesday and then log out for the rest of the week, or worse, unsub until the new patch get released, making SE lose potential money.

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That's going to happen regardless of what difficulty of content there is in the game. Even casual players have those sort of logging and subbing habits. That's just how some people are. The game's content is not entirely to blame for that. Not everyone does these things out of a lack of things to do. Sometimes people just want to do something else other than FFXIV. I have seen this happen in every multi player game I have played.

As for making content slightly harder, I'm okay with that but I don't see it having the effect you desire from it. As mentioned before, people make habits of logging in rarely at times or unsubbing regularly regardless of their skill level or goals in gaming. Everyone is different, and some people like to have a change of scenery more often than others.