Thank you SE for...

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

SE literally went out of their way to say that BLU was not intended for parties. Repeatedly saying it over and over during the live letter.

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Do you imply that, somehow, a job that can one-shot some bosses and completly wipe trash mobs in dungeons is actually "intended for parties"?
"Not suited for parties" means "not balanced for regular parties, we don't want you to go in DF and ruin some newbies' first experiences with a dungeon". At least that's how I understood it. And the way the job was implemented in the game doesn't really goes against my comprehension of that aspect of the job when they presented it.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Also "progression" of a job does mean how it levels. You get more exp when you kill overworld mobs than regular jobs do. (happy face icon) You get literally the same amount of exp from dungeon mobs as regular jobs would. (normal face icon) And you can't do the roulettes for the bonus exp you get like normal jobs can cause you are locked out. (hence the sad face icon)

That is how the BLU job "progresses," how it "levels."

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Well, I could easily argue that Blue Mage's "progression" is also tied to learning skills. I mean, its jobs quests don't only require a level, but also learning a skill. You can't "progress" that questline if you don't learn skill. And if you include that notion to the slide you are refering to, it still completly correct.

But regardless of that argument, SE still never ruled out that you'd have to party to get some skills. If that's what people assumed after seeing "designed for solo play" and "not suited for parties", well, they simply assumed incorrectly. What else to you want me to tell you? People assumed something, got it wrong, and are now blaming SE. What's that supposed to achieve exactly? Having SE saying sorry about not making their presentation more clear? Because that's the only thing you'll get from them at best.

Yes, the presentation was not precise enough and lead to people assuming wrong things. Now what? They won't change the job just to make it fit a powerpoint.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Do you imply that, somehow, a job that can one-shot some bosses and completly wipe trash mobs in dungeons is actually "intended for parties"?

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Yes. It was intended for parties. Pre-made parties. The fact that it takes 4 blues to mop through lvl 50 trash mobs the same amount of time it takes for a Tank, Healer, and 2 DPS to do so does not equate to being overpowered. Also only the first two bosses of a dungeon can be hit by your insta death gimmick spells like Missile and Tail Screw. Making it take even longer for a party of BLUs to kill the final boss of a dungeon. Also most of the 1st and 2nd bosses, as well as the 3rd, are all immune to your status effects that allow you to do spell combos which again keeps you from doing your best damage. This is supposed to be an overpowered broken class that can't go into duty finder because it may or may not have skills that either make the fights take to long, which t hey still do, or ruins a person's experience. Why should your 1 hit spells not work on everything 100% of the time? If you go into a fight with a BLU you know what you are getting into cause you had to agree to it. You formed the premade with them able to join you. As blue is it "requires" parties to do anything. And not just a party of BLUs, a real party with tanks and healers and maybe other DPS besides BLUs. Should some limited job that was so OP or broken that they had to remove it from DF be so week that they can't take down final Dungeon bosses or Primals in a full party of BLUs? A BLU should be able to walk into a Primal fight, see Ifrit cast eruption, and then either Doom it, Missile it to death, or Tail Screw it and kill it. It should be that broken. You would still need a BLU tanking, but you wouldn't need a lvl 70 to carry your sorry butt across the finish line.

Don't try rationality. From page 9 or so that it clearly doesn't apply.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Don't try rationality. From page 9 or so that it clearly doesn't apply.

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Funny, I think the same for a lot of the people I argued with.
Especially the ones who say to me "The job was advertised as DESIGNED for SOLO" and shoot themselves in the foot by saying "yeah, of course is not "solo exclusive" nothing in an online game can be "solo exclusive"".

Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

-snip-

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What I understood from your answer: you made my point about BLU being unfit for regular parties (I know, I didn't say "regular" in my previous post. I assumed it was obvious... you know, like SE probably did when they said "not suited for parties", implying "regular DF-like parties". Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.), you don't care about ruining other player's experience by one-shoting bosses and trash mobs, you don't think that killing some bosses and trash mobs instantly is "overpowered" enough, you think that killing a complete set of trash mobs in a split second takes "the same amount of time [...] for a Tank, Healer, and 2 DPS" and you basically want BLU to have god mode enabled (at least be able to do the same amound of raid DPS than a regular 8-man party, have the same healing capabilities, and be able to resist any raid-wide mechanics & tank busters. So, basically god mode).

Also, good job ignoring most of my post. You made a whole argument about "progression" that I answered, and now it's magically gone from your argumentation.

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I don't know why I even bother. Answer what you want, I don't care anymore. You guys won (everyone who tried to shoot me down, not just the two I quoted).

I wanted people to use proper arguments by arguing against the bad ones in order not to give ammo to SE to shoot them down, was called a white knight and a troll for doing so. A few people tried to argue the same things as I did, without much success unfortunatly. The official forum's echo chamber is quite strong.

Either you (the forums) or me will be able to make quite a big "I told you so" quite soon. I sincerely hope, for the sake of the game, that you will. But if I am the one to make it... boy would it be deserved.

Bye.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

What I understood from your answer: you made my point about BLU being unfit for regular parties (I know, I didn't say "regular" in my previous post. I assumed it was obvious... you know, like SE probably did when they said "not suited for parties", implying "regular DF-like parties". Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.), you don't care about ruining other player's experience by one-shoting bosses and trash mobs, you don't think that killing some bosses and trash mobs instantly is "overpowered" enough, you think that killing a complete set of trash mobs in a split second takes "the same amount of time [...] for a Tank, Healer, and 2 DPS" and you basically want BLU to have god mode enabled (at least be able to do the same amound of raid DPS than a regular 8-man party, have the same healing capabilities, and be able to resist any raid-wide mechanics & tank busters. So, basically god mode).

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Personally, I don't think that they should have a "god mode", but they should at least have the tools to handle old content by themselves. There's a ton of spells and utility available to them. It's just too weak. Why not allow them to make better use of such utility through a series of buffs and tweaks? I think it would be fun to have a complex rotation that requires some actual skill and situational awareness to take down at level dungeon and raid bosses.

Should they have all of this in current content? Aside from an actual rotation and an actual place in the job trinity (tank, heal, dps) no, I don't think so. But if they are going to be locked to old content, let people have their fun. People are cheesing the grind for spells by having themselves carried. That's bad design. It just leaves me wondering...what are they trying to accomplish? I fail to see the bigger picture here.

BLU should've been able to obtain all of its spells in solo gameplay except maybe the ones from the Primals. Make it lengthy, make it complicated to do so, but at least make it possible.

Within a few months when everyone already got their stuff, you won't find many gatherings of blue mages forming parties. And honestly I personally don't have the nerve to ask a friend to spend 2h running me through a dungeon just for a spell that doesn't even affect the level cap endgame...

Edit: I just remembered something hilarious - during the reveal of the BLU you see him learning Shiva's skill solo. I know it was just a representative thing, but that image speaks volumes when in the end it turns out that you really need either a full party or a 70 friend to do so.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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There is no point in arguing over how we perceived what their slides meant. I, most of us, saw one thing, you saw another. Easy to say that after the job has come out.

And BLU is NEVER going to be the same level as regular jobs cause then they would be allowed into current raids. Which would "ruin" peoples experience in said fights "if" any of their OP skills worked on said bosses, which they don't. So yes, I'm perfectly fine with BLU mages abilities being able to work on all bosses since they are limited to pre made parties. If you don't want a BLU to ruin your first time through a dungeon or trail, guess what, you wont encounter one through the Duty Finder. You can lock out BLU from Party Finder / kick them if they join you. So yes, BLUs should be able to use Tail Screw, Doom, Missle, Petrify, w/e moves they have on all bosses / trash mobs 100% of the time IMO.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

So yes, I'm perfectly fine with BLU mages abilities being able to work on all bosses since they are limited to pre made parties.......BLUs should be able to use Tail Screw, Doom, Missle, Petrify, w/e moves they have on all bosses / trash mobs 100% of the time IMO.

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And if not, they shouldn't have that restriction in the first place, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

This job can EXP solo better than any other job. This job has better tools to do undersized content in solo than any other job (at the same level), even SMN. This job as strictly solo content specially designed for it... that you put "aside" for some reasons, arguing that it's just glorified job quests.

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You say that like it is more than an opinion. I am not sure what your basis for stating it's better at undersized content in solo is- but I disagree. Yes, I wrote off it's "solo" content as comparable to any jobs "solo" class content. Other than restate what I said, I am not sure you pointed out how this job meets the stated design goals... certainly not anymore than any other non-limited job.