On Ultimate Off Ultimate

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Why are you bringing this up? Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.

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Because you brought it up? Or did you not just say that your friends and family don’t care about “beating a virtual dragon”?

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Originally Posted by lulunami

At the end of the day, none of this gear means anything. None of my real life friends and families outside of FFXIV care about beating a virtual dragon.

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Good for them if they don’t care. Mine don’t either. The point is irrelevant to this conversation, because it’s not up to your friends or family to define what you find to be fun or an achievement. Nor is it up to you or me. Ultimate not fun for you? Not a worthwhile achievement for you? That’s fine. But it must be fun and/or worthwhile for the people who do it, because otherwise they wouldn’t be doing it.

Hence why I said: please only speak for yourself.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

At the end of the day, none of this gear means anything. None of my real life friends and families outside of FFXIV care about beating a virtual dragon.

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None of my family and very few friends care about my KoMs on Strava either (Yes, raiders can actually be rather athletic).

Doesn't take away one bit from the achievement I feel over them.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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"Back in my day we walked fifteen miles uphill to school both ways in blizzard hurricanes wearing nothing but prime rib through rabid wolf country."

That's cool. In 1990 I didn't exist yet. Many of the people who play this game now didn't exist yet. We aren't beholden to your archaic practices, don't try to enforce them on us. I know plenty of people who have been playing games since then as well, they've adapted and you can too.

This is the reality of today's MMO market, video game market and life. People use this wonderful internet to look up guides and make things simpler in an effort to constantly optimize their experience. If you can't accept that there is no point in anyone speaking to you because you're coming from a mindset that is so different from the rest of the people involved in conversations around raiding that it may as well be a different language.

Also I'm curious - isn't the hunt callout tool also cheating?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because it doesn't stop with "parsing". People who claim that they're only using them as DPS meters, simply aren't. They lack no understanding of the underlying data. They have no understanding of how such realtime DPS meters can't be 100% accurate, but abuse the fact that they got that tool that tells them information that other players don't have. If people were simply running a network parser in the background, and uploading things after-the-fact, there would be a lot less to complain about because players would not be subjected to being kicked by players who are parsing everything.

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So say someone meets this criteria...

-Uses dps meter
-Uses it solely and exclusively for just seeing their own performance level IE: their own numbers
-Does not use it to kick, abuse, or harass anyone
-Does not use any other features or w/e else it has

Explain to me what would be wrong to you about this scenario.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

mobile sorry

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That is the thing you are still blaming a tool for the actions of a few people that use it to cause harm. While maybe not the best example, this line of thinking reminds me of people that wish to ban guns outright simply because some people do harm with them does not mean we should get rid of them all together. I do not think many feel parser offers 100% accurate depiction as to a players performance, but simply use it to give a general idea in the moment. Viewing the data outside of the fight can be used to accurately summarize how a player did though. You make it seem like parser abuse is rampant, and maybe that is the case for you. If you or someone you know is getting kicked maybe instead of blaming the tool some players use, they should use the tool to improve.

I think everyone is in agreement if someone uses any tool to abuse or harasses another player then action should be taken, but why should all people that use the tool be treated in the same way as the one that abused it?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because it doesn't stop with "parsing". People who claim that they're only using them as DPS meters, simply aren't. They lack no understanding of the underlying data. They have no understanding of how such realtime DPS meters can't be 100% accurate, but abuse the fact that they got that tool that tells them information that other players don't have. If people were simply running a network parser in the background, and uploading things after-the-fact, there would be a lot less to complain about because players would not be subjected to being kicked by players who are parsing everything.

There's no consent within the present tools to ensure that players can not abuse it. A properly written tool would recognize a consent sequence (eg "spectacles yes") and a revoke sequence from the players and only show those realtime meters for those who opted-in, and would anonymize the log of those who didn't opt in. That solves the main sources of abuse and harassment that the current parsers enable. A parser plugin like cactbot should not exist, and neither should the triggers plugin, because these change the nature of the "parsing" from "DPS meter" to "just follow the instructions like a walkthrough".

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When it comes to things like FFlogs, I do wish they were opt-in instead of out, because due to my group not knowing that FFlogs were opt-out we caused some issues for a few members that were getting carried through content (for varies reasons) by uploading our logs to go over the data to improve our play. So I am all for having a system that is based around consent, but even so the current system is not inherently awful, sure some players treat the data as the end all be all and live and die by it. Still those players are few in the grand scheme of things. Though even if SE did release an official system that was opt-in most people would simply still use fllogs. While I do not agree that if fflogs switched over to an opt-in system it would ruin it due to the less overall data. That is for another topic.

I do have to say for someone that dislikes third party applications you sure bring them up a lot. :P

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because it doesn't stop with "parsing". People who claim that they're only using them as DPS meters, simply aren't. They lack no understanding of the underlying data. They have no understanding of how such realtime DPS meters can't be 100% accurate, but abuse the fact that they got that tool that tells them information that other players don't have. If people were simply running a network parser in the background, and uploading things after-the-fact, there would be a lot less to complain about because players would not be subjected to being kicked by players who are parsing everything.

There's no consent within the present tools to ensure that players can not abuse it. A properly written tool would recognize a consent sequence (eg "spectacles yes") and a revoke sequence from the players and only show those realtime meters for those who opted-in, and would anonymize the log of those who didn't opt in. That solves the main sources of abuse and harassment that the current parsers enable. A parser plugin like cactbot should not exist, and neither should the triggers plugin, because these change the nature of the "parsing" from "DPS meter" to "just follow the instructions like a walkthrough".

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Even with dots have some estimated calculation, the difference would be negligible. If I, on DRG, have 500-1,000 more damage than a SAM, even if ACT were slightly off with dots. There is no scenario where the SAM isn't simply playing their job incorrectly. The discrepancy wouldn't be anywhere near that significant. Putting all that aside, why do you feel yourself entitled to clear content? If I setup a PF for weeklies Savage runs or Tsukiyomi farm, I get to determine the rules. I could demand everyone run in the pig outfit if I show chose and kick whoever didn't. It's my PF. I am under no obligation to play with you nor are you required to follow my rules. Now if parsers were implemented by the developers, we could have a check box alal Raider Recorder, thus allowing people to ignore parties that have parsers enabled. As that is not a feature, we have to go the anonymous route and kick underperforming players with nary a word as to why.

In regards to triggers. How people enjoy the game is none of your business. Personally, I dislike how automated Cactbot is, thus I don't use the program. But per your walkthrough analogy, I actually like those as I'm not a fan of stumbling around searching for something. You may find that exploration fun in a single player game. I don't. In a more team centric game like this one, how you choose to play does influence my experience.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So say someone meets this criteria...

-Uses dps meter
-Uses it solely and exclusively for just seeing their own performance level IE: their own numbers
-Does not use it to kick, abuse, or harass anyone
-Does not use any other features or w/e else it has

Explain to me what would be wrong to you about this scenario.

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Exactly what I do, which I've asked this poster about twice now. It doesn't fit his/her "all people who use parsers also cheat using other things" manifesto so they're ignoring the question. According to this person, people who use parsers for a personal dps guide don't exist.

Therefore there's no use arguing. As I said, these sorts of people are like the flat-earthers of eorzea. You can logic all you want but they're gonna believe in what they've wasted so much time fighting for.

Kisai is a broken vinyl record at this point. Old and cracked... give it a rest.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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And here we see the derailment mastermind switching the topic from "Ultimate" to "Parsers are the devil and why you should think so too".

She does this everytime, too.