Ifirit, how it could have been done better.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

Ok that 100 times was an exaggeration, so let's drop that. You're starting to make it sound like its necessary; which it's not. You have just as much chance to get your drop on the first attempt as you do in WoW on your first attempt.

Don't think that I'm ignorant enough to believe WoW is unsuccessful, but the fact is that game is dying. RIFT has a crowd but it's basically WoW 2.0 with slight variation and most people I've heard said it's the same thing (I thought it was identical as soon as I played for 2 minutes in the beta. Beta for 4 hours was all I had played that though.) As for SWToR... who knows how that's going to fair, it's got a lot of copies pre-ordered but you never know.

Ifrit is casual, you just have the OPTION to do it as many times as you like. Luck can be on your side and you get all the drops in 7 runs... or against you and it takes 150+.

We all know there is a problem with the loot distribution, but making an auto drop + lockout system would be donkey sh*t in my opinion. Locking people out of the limited content that exists would be playerbase suicide, in my most humble opinion.

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Not sure where you are reading anything about lockout. I never mentioned a single thing about lockout at all. In fact, I would agree - there should not be a lockout. Ifrit is casual in the sense you can do it whenever/however many times you want, but when someone does 10 Ifrits and only gets one drop which they can't use, while other people toss out their duplicates that person could use, well it's not so casual anymore.

You people love your instant rewards eh?
Just like kids who pop in 25 cents for a toy capsule.

Simply retarded.

Even though I'm started to beat Ifrit now.. he still scares me like this ^

Just played this awesome game, this is the best theme =)

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Originally Posted by Ava

Not sure where you are reading anything about lockout. I never mentioned a single thing about lockout at all. In fact, I would agree - there should not be a lockout. Ifrit is casual in the sense you can do it whenever/however many times you want, but when someone does 10 Ifrits and only gets one drop which they can't use, while other people toss out their duplicates that person could use, well it's not so casual anymore.

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I brought up lockouts because you were talking about WoW's raid and loot system. If you were to make Ifrit auto-drop every run, it would only take one day (maybe up to 3) to get everything.

As stated dozens of times already, we know there is a problem with the current loot system. We are spinning in circles here, the simple solutions (in my most humble opinion)...

A.) Do not allow duplicate weapons to be in the chest as a reward
*Prevents the items from falling to the ground, allows for the players to have a higher rate of success for obtaining the items

B.) Lower the drop rate and create a "group" chest (similar to batraal)
*Players can distribute the items as they see fit, drop rate is low so the time for you to get 7/7 weapons will be increased.
*For a "hard" fight there should not be auto-loot. Ifrit is the same as any NM in the game, they have a chance to drop loot and maybe you get it on your first kill.. sometimes it takes up to an hour or more and 50+ kills to get that drop.


C.) No more weapons are obtained from the chest, instead an item (Horn for instance) is obtained which can be traded to a vendor for the item of your choice.
*Similar to option A, but this guarantee's you get the item you desire

D.) You get "tokens" for kill Ifrit and you use the tokens to purchase items
*Similar to option C, but now everything has a set duration... XX kills = weapon XX * Y = 7/7 weapons. "I have to kill Ifrit 100 times and I'll have them all"



I opt for more random loot measures (option A preferably or option B) rather than the latter options. Having this randomness increases the duration of the content.

You will always get those people who "just want the lance then im done" for example. If these people can choose their loot it will lead to less people are doing the content and it slowly becoming a struggle for newer people to complete the content. Yes - that's their choice if they want to do it a few times and never again, but with the current limited playerbase SE needs a looting system that will keep players coming online and playing together.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view) the current loot system accomplishes this task, but in a manner that is not befitting to the current MMO standard.

No need to fear, for your savior and mine, the great Yoshi-p has stepped up and decided to make alterations to the current primal loot system.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

I brought up lockouts because you were talking about WoW's raid and loot system. If you were to make Ifrit auto-drop every run, it would only take one day (maybe up to 3) to get everything.

As stated dozens of times already, we know there is a problem with the current loot system. We are spinning in circles here, the simple solutions (in my most humble opinion)...

A.) Do not allow duplicate weapons to be in the chest as a reward
*Prevents the items from falling to the ground, allows for the players to have a higher rate of success for obtaining the items

B.) Lower the drop rate and create a "group" chest (similar to batraal)
*Players can distribute the items as they see fit, drop rate is low so the time for you to get 7/7 weapons will be increased.
*For a "hard" fight there should not be auto-loot. Ifrit is the same as any NM in the game, they have a chance to drop loot and maybe you get it on your first kill.. sometimes it takes up to an hour or more and 50+ kills to get that drop.


C.) No more weapons are obtained from the chest, instead an item (Horn for instance) is obtained which can be traded to a vendor for the item of your choice.
*Similar to option A, but this guarantee's you get the item you desire

D.) You get "tokens" for kill Ifrit and you use the tokens to purchase items
*Similar to option C, but now everything has a set duration... XX kills = weapon XX * Y = 7/7 weapons. "I have to kill Ifrit 100 times and I'll have them all"



I opt for more random loot measures (option A preferably or option B) rather than the latter options. Having this randomness increases the duration of the content.

You will always get those people who "just want the lance then im done" for example. If these people can choose their loot it will lead to less people are doing the content and it slowly becoming a struggle for newer people to complete the content. Yes - that's their choice if they want to do it a few times and never again, but with the current limited playerbase SE needs a looting system that will keep players coming online and playing together.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your view) the current loot system accomplishes this task, but in a manner that is not befitting to the current MMO standard.

No need to fear, for your savior and mine, the great Yoshi-p has stepped up and decided to make alterations to the current primal loot system.

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You're entitled to your opinion, but myself and most people I know would not pay a monthly fee for your game. I know a lot of this community is a part of a minority in terms of what people want in MMOs, and it's up to Square to decide who they want to appeal to.

Some napkin math:

If you have a group of 8 people in a game with 7 classes and each Ifrit had a 100% chance to drop 2 weapons, 30% chance to drop 3, and a 5% chance to drop 4 and people were able to pass loot to other, assuming you get zero duplicates (I disagree with no duplicates under this system, duplicates would be fine). This is a 100% chance that in 28 Ifrits everyone in the party gets every weapon worst case. Best case it takes 14 (not a math major so feel free to correct me). After seeing this math myself, I would re-evaluate and say Ifrit should drop 1-3 weapons, with duplicates possible.

If you think people want to do one encounter a hundred times for weapons, you're seriously out of your mind. Drop the XI mentality where only the hardcores can have ridills or adaberks or salvage sets etc. Even if you look at the most hardcore guilds in other games, you would lucky if you found anyone with even over 20 kills of a single boss during a single content cycle. It's not something people like to do, it promotes burnout and people wont pay a monthly fee for that.

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Originally Posted by Ava

You're entitled to your opinion, but myself and most people I know would not pay a monthly fee for your game. I know a lot of this community is a part of a minority in terms of what people want in MMOs, and it's up to Square to decide who they want to appeal to.

Some napkin math:

If you have a group of 8 people in a game with 7 classes and each Ifrit had a 100% chance to drop 2 weapons, 30% chance to drop 3, and a 5% chance to drop 4 and people were able to pass loot to other, assuming you get zero duplicates (I disagree with no duplicates under this system, duplicates would be fine). This is a 100% chance that in 28 Ifrits everyone in the party gets every weapon worst case. Best case it takes 14 (not a math major so feel free to correct me). After seeing this math myself, I would re-evaluate and say Ifrit should drop 1-3 weapons, with duplicates possible.

If you think people want to do one encounter a hundred times for weapons, you're seriously out of your mind. Drop the XI mentality where only the hardcores can have ridills or adaberks or salvage sets etc. Even if you look at the most hardcore guilds in other games, you would lucky if you found anyone with even over 20 kills of a single boss during a single content cycle. It's not something people like to do, it promotes burnout and people wont pay a monthly fee for that.

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I don't know which option you're trying to elaborate to. 100 victories seems reasonable to attain ALL seven weapons. Considering there is a chance for you to get the one you want on your first attempt just the same as there is a chance for you to get it on your 99th.

I don't have an XI mentality because I barely played XI; I never did any end-game. So that's a failed point.

Rare / Ex gear should be... Rare.....

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Dictionary.com - Rare

rare
adjective, rar·er, rar·est.
1.
coming or occurring far apart in time; unusual; uncommon: a rare disease; His visits are rare occasions.

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Killing Ifrit 14 - 28 times would be ridiculous, as you agreed. At that point you might as well give people everything for beating him once.

You are however failing to take into account that Ifrit is repeatable, non-stop and can be killed (was meant to be killed) in under 10 minutes. Most of the time on my LS kills they are around 6 - 8 minutes. People have beaten him in 3 minutes.

There is a 15 minute waiting period afterward... but how does this compare to any other MMO raid where you spend hours doing a full run?

There is a reason they have gauranteed loot... it's because there is a massive time investment. Going through IceCrown and killing Lich king to see you got nothing would be a massive kick in the b4lls.

Doing Ifrit in 6 minutes and seeing Dark Matter doesn't really kick me that much, port to grid, get exp, return to broken water and wait 12 minutes to do it again is really not that bad.


Running in circles still... there are solutions; one is going to be implemented but auto-loot is not the answer.

The above post was getting long.... wanted to add something.


You're not even taking into account the fact that 100%... yes ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! Of the best items in the game are obtained OUTSIDE of Ifrit / Raids.

I would take an HQ weapon with 3-5 materia over an Ifrit weapon any day of the week.

Crafters create the best gear in the game, this is where FFXIV differs from a ton of other MMO's; including your WoW example.


Multi Materia > Ex / Rare > Single Materia > Uncommon (green items) > No Materia

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

You people love your instant rewards eh?
Just like kids who pop in 25 cents for a toy capsule.

Simply retarded.

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2011, you have to be handed everything. It's 2011 etc.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

The above post was getting long.... wanted to add something.


You're not even taking into account the fact that 100%... yes ONE HUNDRED PERCENT! Of the best items in the game are obtained OUTSIDE of Ifrit / Raids.

I would take an HQ weapon with 3-5 materia over an Ifrit weapon any day of the week.

Crafters create the best gear in the game, this is where FFXIV differs from a ton of other MMO's; including your WoW example.


Multi Materia > Ex / Rare > Single Materia > Uncommon (green items) > No Materia

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Could use any popular MMORPG to support my examples because they are all adapting the standard WoW has set for MMORPGs. Except FFXIV. The only thing you're convincing me of is this game has a hopeless future, which is unfortunate because Yoshi-P is working his ass off.

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Originally Posted by Ava

Could use any popular MMORPG to support my examples because they are all adapting the standard WoW has set for MMORPGs. Except FFXIV. The only thing you're convincing me of is this game has a hopeless future, which is unfortunate because Yoshi-P is working his ass off.

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Unfortunate for you, and your tons of friends I suppose.

Guess what? I have tons of friends who disagree with your friends.

Wanna take this outside? Whoever hits harder is always logically correct, right?

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Point is, people need to stop mistaking what they expect from an MMO as the epic standard that should not be breached and they need to stop saying crap like if they don't do it the way I hope they do, they have no future.