Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

The gross, vital importance of provoke, swiftcast, and quelling strikes for certain jobs that don't earn anything comparable was a design choice that is repeatedly biting players in the backside.

Despite Black Mage always being one of my absolute favorite jobs in Final Fantasy, I've never leveled it on any of my FFXIV characters (been off and on since PS3 beta) due to the need of Quelling to not drive your party insane.... And I really don't like archer.

It's an unfortunate leftover from 1.0's class design. Cross class skills allowed you to build basically any kind of job you wanted, but the introduction of jobs to give players their old FF roles added a restriction to it to give old players the ability to still use the abilities they had already worked for while not breaking the feel of said jobs.

It's degraded into a tool to make us play other jobs to another grinding wall that some of us have to scale, and it's worse for certain jobs, including tanks.

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The entire point is to encourage players to level other jobs. Between all the bonus EXP you get at those early levels, it will take a few hours tops to unlock Quelling Strikes. No offense, but this is just being a tad lazy.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

reminds me of people who say "FFXI didn't hold my hand, so intuitive design is bad" as though FFXI is a game that is the pinnacle of game design. What is the downside of the suggestions given? (provoke swapped with FoF, a message telling the player about provoke upon lvl 30, giving each tank their own provoke etc.)

"I had to go through a flawed system, so the system shouldn't be improved" is a terrible comeback :P

EDIT: It is possible you were being sarcastic, but the point still stands to others if you were

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Person I quoted asked why. I was just answering why I thought people are like that.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The entire point is to encourage players to level other jobs. Between all the bonus EXP you get at those early levels, it will take a few hours tops to unlock Quelling Strikes. No offense, but this is just being a tad lazy.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

(you can't have both freedom of choice, and mandatory at the same time)

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Encouragement is not requirement, and you should not make a required skill as an incentive without telling players that provoke will be required as part of a WAR/DRKs toolkit (same applies to quelling and swiftcast). Encouragement implies that it is optional but desired, which provoke is not. Lazy perhaps, but being lazy towards optional content is a players right.

Ever think they want people to experiment with the cross class system while leveling up? You have more freedoms while leveling to try things out since almost all content is a face roll. Its trial and error until you understand what you should use and what not to use. You have to switch to the sub class and get it to 15 regardless! The second you equip that sword you get a list of every single ability a GLA can use. If you don't give all the skills you can learn a read over that is YOUR OWN FAULT, why do you think they list them all beforehand? Dont blame the game because you can't be bothered to read.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

snip

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

A WAR can't see provoke if they haven't unlocked it on GLA. An unaware player would have no idea the skill existed. A WAR would need to 1) switch to GLA 2) look at GLA skills that havent been unlocked 3) find provoke 4) identify it as cross class. Thats a lot of effort to go through when you don't even know the skill exists and you don't play GLA

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

1) I was leveling a SMN to begin. I did read my abilities, on my hotbar, as they popped up. I didn't really have a need to open my abilities tab as I was leveling, because everything magically showed up on my hotbar, I read it, figured out how it worked with what I had, and put it where I wanted on the hotbar.

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Sprouts/fresh 60s aren't stupid for not exploring all of the menus of all of the jobs (especially ones they don't intend on playing).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Sprouts/fresh 60s aren't stupid for not exploring all of the menus of all of the jobs (especially ones they don't intend on playing).

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That again is an issue with them not the game. I'm pretty sure we will never see eye to eye on this subject so I'm going to leave it here for now ^^

I did ultima's bane w/ a tank that didn't had provoke

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Originally Posted by bass9020

That again is an issue with them not the game. I'm pretty sure we will never see eye to eye on this subject so I'm going to leave it here for now ^^

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The design philosophy of menu systems is that the less menus you need to go through, the more intuitive the system is. Research the 3 click rule for web design as an example. To do what you propose takes more than 3 steps and accesses menus that are irrelevant for someone who wants to play WAR/DRK, we are talking about the menus design here, which is a flaw of the game, not the player.

I'm not saying that players can't find the information themselves, as you suggest, I'm saying that the way the game presents the information is unintuitive and could be vastly improved for such a vital skill.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Ever think they want people to experiment with the cross class system while leveling up? You have more freedoms while leveling to try things out since almost all content is a face roll. Its trial and error until you understand what you should use and what not to use. You have to switch to the sub class and get it to 15 regardless! The second you equip that sword you get a list of every single ability a GLA can use. If you don't give all the skills you can learn a read over that is YOUR OWN FAULT, why do you think they list them all beforehand? Dont blame the game because you can't be bothered to read.

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But while reading you don't see what is cross-class-able and what is not unless you look at the very small part of each specific skills' tooltip that says "affinity" and lists the classes who can use it, which you can't expect a new player to do at all since he's not even used to the interface yet. Come on, it's just common sense at this point. Putting more visibility to this VITAL cross-class skill isn't gonna hurt anyone, it's not gonna make the game easier whatsoever, so why are you against that ?

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Originally Posted by bass9020

You have to switch to the sub class and get it to 15 regardless! The second you equip that sword you get a list of every single ability a GLA can use. If you don't give all the skills you can learn a read over that is YOUR OWN FAULT, why do you think they list them all beforehand? Dont blame the game because you can't be bothered to read.

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This is not the case for DRK, because the job doesn't even require player to even unlock gladiator to begin with..

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

But while reading you don't see what is cross-class-able and what is not unless you look at the very small part of each specific skills' tooltip that says "affinity" and lists the classes who can use it, which you can't expect a new player to do at all since he's not even used to the interface yet. Come on, it's just common sense at this point. Putting more visibility to this VITAL cross-class skill isn't gonna hurt anyone, it's not gonna make the game easier whatsoever, so why are you against that ?

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I second this. Back when i was new, i was having a hard time understanding what are those abbreviation for each classes/jobs..