How are you handling your Novus upgrade?

[QUOTE=winsock;2303019]This isn't correct. Det isnt impacted by mind. An increase in magic dmg increases the effectiveness of det.
/QUOTE]


Wrong, but your mistake is very common.
You have to look at it as overall effect rather, not linear increase.
For example if 1 det = 1 hp healed for a given spell. When you heal for 100, 1 det is a 1% increase. When you heal for 1000 it is a .1 % increase. While a 1% increase in casting speed INCREASES the HP amount in the same increase in this example. Spellspeed has a diminishing return with itself, but not with MND, WD and DET, it actually an inverse relationship relative value with all 3.

Using a damage formula from the forum as reference.

(WD*.2714745 + STR*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*STR*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (potency/100)
As you can see (if you understand PEMDAS), they are clearly diminishing to each other because they are attached only by addition instead of multipliers or fractions.

Your debating something I don't think you quite understand.

Just a note, eventually if gear levels got absurdly high (think Ilevel999 or 9999) 1 point of spellspeed would overtake mind, and even weapon damage in value.

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Originally Posted by Staris

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You say I'm wrong but then restate what I said earlier... albeit substantially more wordy. All that changes is the ratio... If 1 det = 1hp before a mind change, 1 det will still be 1 HP after a change in mind. The effect doesnt change. MND does not affect det.

You do realize you're comparing proportions and not effectiveness, right? (Note that by ur logic, an increase in det would decrease the effectiveness mind...) By ur logic, ss also reduces the effectiveness of mind. For example, say ur only stat is mind and you have 1000 hps, mind is 100%. Now you add enough ss to reduce ur average cast time by half. Ur hps is now 2000, mind is 50%... Ur just talking about the ratio, not the effectiveness....

Not to mention, this argument is off base. How often is mind increased w/o being able to increase secondary points as well? If you want to make an argument as being better b/c of total mind, you need to compare the same mind amount vs total allowable det and total allowable ss for the ilvl... You also cant make an argument about ilvl 9999 because it doesnt exist and you don't know the implications of other stats at the ilvl in the state the game will be in when ilvl 9999 would be available. You are "counting chickens before they hatch" as it were. And all of this is before taking the realistic impact of ss into the equation.

The proportions are simply to explain that the real value of a stat changes based on your current levels of all other stats. This is fact, not really a debate.

The only debate one could make is if speed has yet to overtake det in per point value.
Which I never even claimed it has yet, only that it was very likely.

My sole comment was that people that say Det is worth X SPD and that value never changes, have no idea what they are talking about.
As you continue to show with your inability to understand that ALL stats have diminishing returns, however, the slopes and relationships are still very different.

Holy... Just searched your loadstone.
Why am I wasting my time lol.

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Originally Posted by Staris

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Lol cause loadstone changes the way math works? Ur deflecting.

I'll try to explain one more time.
What you were measuring:
How much of the hps is made of mind and how much of the hps is made of det.

What you should be measuring:
How much det and equivalent ss for ilvl increase hps from a baseline.

As a stat in general there are other things to consider. SS has nearly null impact on hots, dots, and insta-casts. Cooldowns can make up for lack of ss. The 0.04s from novus compared to a 2.5s base cast, 2 full mins of chain casting would not even equate to 1 additional cast

got my Thyrus Novus.
I went +33 Pie +29 Det +10 Sp.Spd +3 Crit

My reasons:

At +33 Pie +22 Det It is already equal to the Yagrush with 20 stats remaining to be infused.

+29 Det puts it on equal Det as your Animus. This makes it better than the Yagrush. Yagrush Stats+Animus Det= :D with 13 stats remaining to be infused

now i thought about maxing out det but... I dont feel like spending 1m+ (savage might IV hovers around 500k on Coeurl) hoping for +2 det. So what made me decided on how to use my last 13 stats was the fact that the stats i put on now will grow with the wep from now on (I dont see a point where further down the line you would remove the stats you already worked hard to put on it and instead will take quest to improve the already infused stats.)

I dont believe crit isn't 100% bad. As long as it isn't very high on a whm, that 1 random crit can save a life. Also crit when you're dpsing is nice.

Sp.Spd isn't too bad either. helps get off that spell in the nick of time sometimes (though almost un noticable lol)

so i wanted crit to be about a 3rd of sp.spd and went 3/10. So down the line as my wep grows through the relic quest: pie always upgrades at max, det at about 90%, and sp.spd and crit growing at a small but non overwhelming amount. besides, its nice seeing 7 stats growing with my weapon lol

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Originally Posted by winsock

Lol cause loadstone changes the way math works? Ur deflecting.

I'll try to explain one more time.
What you were measuring:
How much of the hps is made of mind and how much of the hps is made of det.

What you should be measuring:
How much det and equivalent ss for ilvl increase hps from a baseline.

As a stat in general there are other things to consider. SS has nearly null impact on hots, dots, and insta-casts. Cooldowns can make up for lack of ss. The 0.04s from novus compared to a 2.5s base cast, 2 full mins of chain casting would not even equate to 1 additional cast

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Novus alone not. A SS-focused build by wearing complete HA is noticeable. As with any other secondary stat, it gets its weigth by stacking a build around it. And Novus / HA Weapon deliver their part greatly.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Lol cause loadstone changes the way math works? Ur deflecting.


As a stat in general there are other things to consider. SS has nearly null impact on hots, dots, and insta-casts. Cooldowns can make up for lack of ss. The 0.04s from novus compared to a 2.5s base cast, 2 full mins of chain casting would not even equate to 1 additional cast

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If megaflare is coming in 10 seconds and I have to stone skin 4, because an extra person because they just ate some damage, that .04 seconds lets me get it off before flare compared to not having it. 2.5 vs 2.46 for example.

Your 1 additional cast is meaningless because most encounters its about timing abilities not about how many you can cast. But you wouldn't understand this having done zero relevant challenging encounters in the game.

How does det help me with that stoneskin?

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Originally Posted by Staris

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I'll start by saying I'm glad ur giving examples and appreciate the discussion. I'm not opposed to changing my mind, but have yet to see the value in ss.

As for your example, your scenario is wrong. The base cast time of stoneskin is 3 seconds, but I understand what you're trying to say so I'll rearrange the scenario. Let's say 12 seconds to cast stoneskin on 4 ppl.

My problem with ss is that the benefit requires pretty specific/random-ish circumstances while the det benefit is nearly every time you heal or dps (I view ss in a similar light as crit).

For example, say you only needed to stoneskin 1-3 in 12s instead of 4. The scenario only works in your favor if you can't cast any sooner, you've already blown swiftcast, and you've already blown PoM. You could go the entire fight having lower heals and mp efficiency, without ever running into this very specific scenario.

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Originally Posted by Grotesque

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Novus in particular is an exception because the stats don't have weight considerations in relation to the total number of secondary points.

Consider 44 points spent:
44 ss
Vs
31 det + 13 ss.

The det option has higher burst, higher hps, better hots + dots, and better mp efficiency, and misses out on ~0.03 reduction in cast time. Both options still allow 31 more points to be chosen.

I did 34 SS, 24 Det, and the rest in Piety on my Thyrus.

Regarding spell speed I at least definitely notice how my character handles when I either go to lower level stuff or when Spiritbonding stuff that drops my SS. I guess the best thing I can compare it to is driving someone else's car... it may be a small difference on paper but it is something you definitely notice after spending a good amount of time with it. It's nice when you get a big upgrade to it and all of a sudden in some fights you are moving out of AOEs and completing casts that you weren't before.

My stat spread was for a couple reasons... obviously the lower cost since I was originally planning to go with T4 SS and Det until i had any failure chance at all but spiritbonding for 2 weeks only gave me one of each. I also wanted the weapon to be decently balanced since the Novus allows you a bit more Secondary stats than a comparable iLevel item and I think that runoff into a 3rd stat is useful as it is easier to build around it to make up for stat deficiencies in available gear in the future. I did want to keep the SS high too as I want to maintain my SS around my current values as I have gotten used to and like how my casting times feel.

I think the argument some people sometimes bring up about not needing piety or spell speed because you should know what's coming up or everything is in a pattern or whatever is irrelevant as you want to improve your gear to take on challenges that you haven't perfected and are still giving you trouble. Both stats give you some more leeway in different ways when still going after a first win and once you perfect a fight your secondary stats generally don't matter in the slightest.