Is anyone else bothered by the lack of incentive for mediocre players to improve?

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Maybe if people as a whole were better at their jobs people wouldn't feel the need to enforce high ilevel caps, which comes back to the topic of this thread.

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It is not really being good at your job, it is working as a team with random players who may or may not know the fight, of course everyone wants to play it safe and demand higher ilvl's. and if we go back to garuda ex, I really don't understand how can it be hard for anyone to realise why most pf recruitment's ilvl's are higher than 65, just think about how quickly an ilvl65 tank will fall to double wicked wheel, it is completely understandable to want to complete the encounter more easily with less risks. And to be fair usually the ilvl requirements are 5-10 level's higher than the minimum ilvl required to enter the instance, I rarely see outrageous ilvl's like 80+

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the people asking for higher as a precaution are being unreasonable. PF and DF are luck of the draw, and there's way more bad out there than good. But to say that the fight is straight up impossible at the minimum level is something I take issue with.

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Why? There are DPS checks in a lot of fights: You have to deal a certain # of damage in a certain # of time. If your #s aren't up to par with what's needed, you lose, end of story. Dodging is a seperate issue, but there are still plenty of fights where it's at least partly a numbers game (welcome to RPGs).

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Originally Posted by Lyrro

It's probably not that they're missing the point, so much as that these are the guys who this thread is talking about. Anyone who would make the argument that someone getting the same reward as you after putting in less than a fraction of the work as you isn't a bad thing is obviously not the guy putting in the work.

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Edellis' post is very relevant to this. Anyone that has their equipment got it the legitimate way; by playing the game. Thank you, untradeable equipment. They didn't put "less work" into it than you. They probably did take the game a lot less seriously than you do.

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Originally Posted by Lyrro

Plain fact is, this game is flawed from the ground up, giving people fates as an easy way to jump to 50 without having to do any real practice for their role, then allowing them to jump straight into a dungeon which drops i80 gear while letting you farm for i70 gear.

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This is not what a Fact is. I'm not pointing it out to be the Grammar Police, but because this philosophy is a huge problem in the game on the forums. Your beliefs about how seriously players should take this game are creating an atmosphere of hostility, rather than enjoyment, which is making everyone suffer. And your entitlement about it ("Plain fact is...") is degrading and unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Lyrro

The whole arguement I keep seeing people make about how you should "just worry about yourself" and "the way others play doesn't affect you" are, yet again, clearly the people the OP was talking about. You can make the arguement all you want that other people don't affect you, but lets see you try to do titan ex with a pug who's wearing i90 gear but still can't hold aggro or, as I've had the chance to witness, tanks Garuda hard while standing in two twisters. Not one, he actually pulled her to the point where two of the twisters were overlapping and tried to tank her there despite being told over and over to get out of the aoes. He died, then we all died, and people still want to tell me that "the way they play doesn't affect you".

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As far as I know, nobody has claimed that DF doesn't affect you. Taking less personal offense to someone playing their character in a less efficient manner is not saying "let it go, the way they play doesn't affect you." It's saying, "You have three options in these situations: 1.) You could be a leader and a role model, 2.) You can ignore it and play the cards you're dealt, or 3.) You could be a jerk about it."

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Why? There are DPS checks in a lot of fights: You have to deal a certain # of damage in a certain # of time. If your #s aren't up to par with what's needed, you lose, end of story. Dodging is a seperate issue, but there are still plenty of fights where it's at least partly a numbers game (welcome to RPGs).

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Everything you just said is true. What you're not accounting for, though, is that most of the time people aren't playing anywhere near optimally and on top of that are using strategies that assume higher-than-minimum levels of gear (in some cases much higher).

I'm not saying that people can go in with the minimum requirements and use the current strategies to win. It's probably not doable. I don't think I'm alone in saying that an ilvl 65 tank is going to have a hard time surviving 2xWW, especially with ilvl 65 heals. But, then, we know there are strategies that split the wheels apart so no one eats 2 of them. We know there are strategies where a DD tanks one mob, etc. Without seeing some people try, I'm not going to just assume that the devs picked a number out of a hat. Especially not when I know how much people over-estimate required gear.

As far as dps checks, a lot of people can't dps their way out of a wet paper bag. And yes, for those people, gear can help pull them through content they couldn't otherwise clear. But when the game flat out tells you "This is the minimum ilvl you can have to attempt this content," I assume that it's not trolling us and that the content is indeed beatable at that ilvl, even if it's not easy.

You will rarely see ilvl requirements below 80, on Midgard, for Ultima HM, Garuda Ex, and Titan Ex or even coil 1-4. Ifrit Ex is just flat out I85, if you manage to spot a PF for it, even though it's the easiest fight out of the 3 primals.

People just want to be carried and take the easy way out. What's the best way of doing that? By heavily outgearing content. The funny thing is that most of these high ilvl groups still can't even accomplish the task given the gear. How many Garuda Ex groups do you see that are ranged heavy for ease? And how many posts on forums say that it's done with melee compositions?

Fact is, like it's been stated multiple times, this is a game where casuals will always get their way and it's pointless to ask them to do anymore than press 1-2-3. It's sad that the game isn't even hard to begin with but asking other players to play their class a little better results in "You're just an elitest who needs to stfu" or "we do w/e the fuck we want". It's sad when you can barely find brds, which is the easiest class to play, to do more than 130 dps on ANY fight. And you guys want to trash on the people who want YOU to help YOUR teammates more by playing more appropriately given that YOU ask for the high ilvl. The high ilvl that you can just log on one day of the week to get 1 i90 piece.

The minimum requirements for the dungeons are for people who do know how to play efficiently. It isn't hard for them at that ilvl because they know whats coming and what to do in the situations. All the primal fights are scripted and the interviews already stated that you should be memorizing the fights. It's one thing if you don't know a fight and are learning it, but its another thing when you're already at a high ilvl and are trying to do new content but STILL don't know how to play you're class.

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Originally Posted by illuminapanic

stuffs

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On shiva I have never seen any pf groups the are "ranged only", I have seen people talking about them here on the forums but I have literally seen them 0 times.

On the topic, you really should avoid sentences like "casuals will always get their way", it doesn't take much brain to figure out why people call you elitist if you use language like that. I just don't see the problem here, If I understand your problem right, it is that you think "casuals" can get their gear too easily. What you have to understand here is that this game is designed in a way that is has hard content which will reward you with great gear, and then it has gear that takes time instead of effort. Players who have full myth gear by now have invested a good load of time to get that gear. Now first of all you are trying to force your own way of getting gear to everyone, sorry, but this game is designed in a way that you can get good gear by not doing the hardest of all the content. It is a very brilliant game design: "casuals" can enjoy it, and guys who like to get absolutely the best(allagan weapon is the only ilvl95 gear right now) and challenge the hardest content, can do the hardest content and enjoy it. What is the problem here? You will always have bad players in a game that requires team play, what gear they get has nothing to do with that, join a good fc, form your own group and play with them. I don't see any reason to be anal pained over the fact that other players get their gear in a certain way.

If you just simply can't stand that and you still can't enjoy the game I have something to say for you: You indeed are an elitist and the solution for you is: Please stop playing the game, it is designed the way it is, and it might not be for you. The community won't lose anything if guys like you leave.

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Originally Posted by Inflorescence

Edellis' post
This is not what a Fact is. I'm not pointing it out to be the Grammar Police, but because this philosophy is a huge problem in the game on the forums. Your beliefs about how seriously players should take this game are creating an atmosphere of hostility, rather than enjoyment, which is making everyone suffer. And your entitlement about it ("Plain fact is...") is degrading and unnecessary.


As far as I know, nobody has claimed that DF doesn't affect you. Taking less personal offense to someone playing their character in a less efficient manner is not saying "let it go, the way they play doesn't affect you." It's saying, "You have three options in these situations: 1.) You could be a leader and a role model, 2.) You can ignore it and play the cards you're dealt, or 3.) You could be a jerk about it."

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Fact:a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:

True: fates can be run starting at lvl 1 and can be ground all the way to lvl 50.
True: starting at lvl 50 you can go straight into ct to farm i80, i70, and myth tomes for i90 gear.
True: most fate farm areas for people grinding to 50 are done in decent numbered zergs and thus require little effort on the part of those grinding.
True: it's very rare for me to see a ct run where people aren't killing skeletons right beside bone dragon, dropping comets on iron giant or behemoth, or ignoring napalms despite at least one person per trip giving instruction before each fight. Personal experiences vary, but given that I've done well over 100 ct runs at this point, I'm going to go with the idea that experience doesn't lie.

So far I've yet to see where what I stated ceases to be a fact. My beliefs on how players at lvl 50 should know at least enough about their jobs to do their jobs does not affect the facts listed above. In regards to your idea of my "getting insulted" by people who don't play as well as I do. I'm not insulted by those people, I'm that guy who joins random titan hard runs with my zenith weapons to help random pugs. I couldn't care less about people not knowing the game as well as I do or not being as good as I am. I get agitated by people who run around in i90 gear and getting the party wiped for the fourth time (not choosing a random number, I've seen in plenty of times) by making the exact same simple mistake because they're so used to not having to try that they just don't want to, or they're so used to not having to try that when they have to they don't know how to. The vast majority of my ct runs have resulted in my alliance sitting in front of KB trying to convince at least one tank to MT or OT because none of the tanks can, or none of them want to because it's so much easier to stand by the tower and do nothing. This of course just being another fun example.

If you've actually read all the posts, btw, instead of just skipping to the last one and reading it then posting, you'd notice that several people have actually made the comment "the way they play doesn't affect you", though their wording may vary somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

There's basically none.

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Oh I agree. And sadly this is one case where I have to agree WoW did some things right early on (now I hear you can do raids in their DF which is retarded)

But giving raid level gear to people who never step foot into raid zones boggles my mind.

I was helping a guildy plan out gear for his alt monk (I'm a monk main) and he made a comment like "I'm just looking at what I could get since I am not going to be able to raid and get gear like you have".... It hit me at that moment that the gear I'm wearing requires barely any raiding and the little it does can be run by just about any 8 people PF throws together.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Jibber jabber

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Never said ranged only and no you did not understand my problem right. I never stated anywhere that I cared about how they got their gear. My problem is that people want to be carried through content, as per their absurd high ilvl requirement, while not being able to perform correctly and not even caring. It's not just in 2.1 content either, it's in low level dungeons where people refuse to even take any advice. Plds who try to flash mobs before even reaching the pack and don't try to keep threat on multiple mobs anymore, Blm's who spam blizzard because they like the full mp, drgs and mnks who don't know their positionals, and the list can go on. Some of these are relic/myth people who join duty roulettes and tell you to "mind your own business" when you try to give them advice.

Maybe I should assume you are one of these lowly players who refuse any advice since you make such silly assumptions. I join duty finders and party finders because i'm bored with doing content with my group so I try and help the community. The player's who don't have the luxury of having groups to play with. But if players ask others to carry them but can't even hold their own, it's really bad. The community gets shitty from people like you.

To be fair, the way fights are designed (basically, you have to memorize the script) it's very easy to see why people use a high iLevel.