DRG is unbalanced and desperately needs a buff.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

I'm wondering what the point of all this is...

SE is buffing DRG.

DRG has never been a utility Job.

Preaching to chior when it comes to saying a job that's slated for a buff needs buffing.

What sort of utility are you requesting they add?

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Improved Jump animation is all that has been mentioned.
Aside from that there has been no mention of a flat buff for DRG - simply a blanket buff for melee (ie. MNK and DRG). This will just push MNK higher then it already is, and potentially make DRG comparable to ranged DPS, yet lack utility..

What I am saying is DRG needs to be comparable to MNK, and stronger then ranged in general.

I am not necersarilly requesting they add any utility - simply stating that they need one or the other:
Stronger damage then jobs that have more utility, or comparable damage with comparable utility.

You can't have a job (like BLM for example) that is stronger, more useful, and less risky to play.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I am not necersarilly requesting they add any utility - simply stating that they need one or the other:
Stronger damage then jobs that have more utility, or comparable damage with comparable utility.

You can't have a job (like BLM for example) that is stronger, more useful, and less risky to play.

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Agreed, except in matters regarding MNK.

Monk does better on paper but rarely in actuality due to how fragile their max DPS state is. You also highly underestimate the level of increase fixing our animation lag becomes. It means the difference if being able to use jump inside the timing of a Heavy Thrust and pull off a FT combo, and not being able to.

You've not answered the question as to WHAT utility you would like Dragoon to have in the case they add Utility to Dragoon. (They already have 2 stuns and a Piercing Buff, as well as more positional tools,[2 gap closer an an escape/hate dump.] As well as the most dependable slow in the game.)

Global Buffs to Melee does not mean Melee will receive buffs equally, only that all of them will be buffed.

Black Mage suffers from cast time, unlike Bard, who's being nerfed. Between the buff to melee, and the nerf to Bard, that should even things out a good fair bit.

But I do not believe the lack of a 'utility' especially in the event that most utility skills go generally unused, should be cause to make DRG unquestionably the best Melee DD, so we loop around back to my center question.

What utility would you like to add to Dragoon? I wouldn't mind if they added utility, but I'm at a loss of direction here. If you're making demands of it, you really should have a suggestion handy.

What I'd really want them to fix is how server is doing the jumps. It's silly that elusive jump updates your position on end of the animation, and not in realtime. Jumping out of AoE is nearly impossible. Same for Jump: you jump, but your position stays the same despite you moving on the screen. As for the blanket melee buff, from what I saw, it's not a damage buff but some kind of buff to outweigh us having to run out of AoE all the time vs ranged jobs.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Monk does better on paper but rarely in actuality due to how fragile their max DPS state is bad most monk player are.

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Fixed. Out of 10 monks I meet, 8 will underperform. Sometimes, if I mess up my rotations, I also see a huge drop in dps. That said, Monk is balanced with them losing GL3 in mind. It's a high ceiling job where you have to adapt your rotation on-the-fly, vs. DRG's relatively static ones.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Agreed, except in matters regarding MNK.

Monk does better on paper but rarely in actuality due to how fragile their max DPS state is. You also highly underestimate the level of increase fixing our animation lag becomes. It means the difference if being able to use jump inside the timing of a Heavy Thrust and pull off a FT combo, and not being able to.

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While the window to maintain optimal DPS for MNK is 10 seconds, the issue is the DPS potential for MNK is just so rediculously higher then DRG. I don't necessarily disagree that on a fast moving fight (such as Garuda), MNK does indeed take a hit - the issue is that currently it's really the only fight where MNKs have trouble being leagues ahead. All I am saying is the gap between potential DPS, for DRG and MNK is too large.

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You've not answered the question as to WHAT utility you would like Dragoon to have in the case they add Utility to Dragoon. (They already have 2 stuns and a Piercing Buff, as well as more positional tools,[2 gap closer an an escape/hate dump.] As well as the most dependable slow in the game.)

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Anything.

I am not going to do their dev work for them - I am simply stating that it needs adjusting.

The piercing buff only applies to themselves and BRDs. While it is technically utility, when their damage is compared to a job such as BRD who potentially has access to increasing BLM and SMN damage, helping the healers stay topped up with MP (as well as the BLM in this case, means less phase changes), regenerating TP for all melee after an AoE zerg, an AoE attack down (which is actually pretty huge for a tank), as well as the standard interrupts (actually the most instant in the game) and escape (Repelling shot).

On top of this, DRG's gap closers not only lock you for 2 seconds (yes they are adjusting this), their CD's are long. While they may have 3 different types, you can effectively only use one every 60 seconds (if you want to be sure you have one up at all times). Repelling shot, and Aetherial Manipulation as an example has a CD of 30 seconds.

So basically what you are saying is "they can buff themselves and BRDs, as well as having the utility that practically every other DPS already has".

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Global Buffs to Melee does not mean Melee will receive buffs equally, only that all of them will be buffed.

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However it also could potentially mean that there is a blanket buff done to mechanics that affects all, equally.

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Black Mage suffers from cast time, unlike Bard, who's being nerfed. Between the buff to melee, and the nerf to Bard, that should even things out a good fair bit.

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Yet BLM have infinite resources. Cast times also generally last the same length as a GCD for their staple attack (Fire), so you aren't really doing anything slower. Sure they can't move, but they are also natively stronger then BRD... ie. Balance.

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But I do not believe the lack of a 'utility' especially in the event that most utility skills go generally unused, should be cause to make DRG unquestionably the best Melee DD, so we loop around back to my center question.

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Whether the skills are used whenever their CD's are up or not - the fact that they have the option or rather the ability to do it is something that DRG does not.
The issue is that these other DPS classes can offer support when it's needed, and do more or as much damage.

I also never said "it should be king of the hill". I simply said it is underwhelming and needs a buff. Simply giving them an equal footing with MNK is enough - as you could argue the advantage of playing a quote on quote "more difficult" (lol) class such as MNK, is a little bit more utility or potential damage.

I am not saying they need to be behind the tank on the hate list. I am simply saying they need to be comparable. Currently they are not.

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What utility would you like to add to Dragoon? I wouldn't mind if they added utility, but I'm at a loss of direction here. If you're making demands of it, you really should have a suggestion handy.

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Once again, I don't necersarilly think they should get utility. They just need to have either better damage and less utility, or comparable in both. The easiest solution to balancing it is damage.
That is my suggestion.

Basically DRG is currently in a similar position to MNK in 1.0..
While MNK was the best option (at least strongest) in a couple of fights (namingly Chimera & Miser), DRG was a superior choice for practically anything else.
However of course BLM and BRD got favored simply because of how easy they were to play - in addition to how safe they were since they were ranged..

Basically the roles are reversed now.
BLM and BRD are still favored choices, MNK is now king of the hill, and DRG is somewhat lackluster.

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Originally Posted by Altena

DoT's are actually DRG's highest potency combos. While you may not be able to spam them due to their nature - they have the highest potency for the amount of steps. You said it is wrong to be doing most of DRG's damage in DoT's, while I agree with that, I only agree with that due to their nature (being unable to spam them), however they are still the strongest skills you can do in the same amount of steps/GCD's.
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So sorry to say, but DoT's are actually DRG's strongest skills. While they may not be spammable like FT, and on a parser it is not their "primary source of damage" due to the nature of a DoT, and the sheer number of immediate damage skills, the potency is much higher per combo/step then a raw damage skill. Therefore DRG's true strength does indeed come from DoT. I am not saying "the majority of my damage comes from DoT". I am simply saying that "the strongest potency per step comes from a DoT, therefore they have better sustained damage then they have spike damage". Even when their sustained damage isn't that crash hot.

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Have you played any other classes? Because the same thing is true for literally every class in the game.

For example, MNK:

MNK DoTs:
Touch of Death = 270 total potency (over 30 seconds)
Demolish = 240 total potency (over 18 seconds)

Outside of those attacks, MNK's highest potency attack is 180.

BLM's DoTs:
Thunder 3 = 340 total potency (over 24 seconds)

That's even higher than Flare!

In fact, all DoTs have higher total potency than standard attacks. And there's a very simple reason for that. Using DoTs requires you to balance the effects over time vs. the benefit of an immediately strong attack. If the mob is going to die soon, then you want to skip the DoTs and use standard attacks. But if the mob is going to live for a long time, you want to use the DoTs. If DoTs were just as strong as standard attacks, there would be literally no benefit to ever using DoTs.

In other words, if the DoTs were as strong as standard attacks -- which is what you seem to be asking for -- then there would be no reason to ever use DoTs. SE should just take them out of the game. Because why would you use an attack that does 150 potency spread over 30 seconds, rather than an attack that does 200 potency immediately?

Moreover, as you admit, most of DRG's damage does not come from DoTs. Most of their damage comes from standard attacks. And DRG's combination of quick buffs and powerful attacks with longer cooldowns means that they're geared toward spike damage. The fact that their highest potency attacks are DoTs just means that their DoTs are useful; it does not mean that DRG is only a sustained damage class. It means they can continue to do sustained damage even when their "spike" damage is on cooldown.

As Hyrist said, I think DRG's have great utility right now. The fact that their piercing debuff helps BRD, too, is huge, especially considering that BRD is probably the only DPS class that's considered practically mandatory for the Coil right now.

But I would be curious how you think they can add utility to DRG. I'm generally in favor of making classes more useful. If you can suggest a way to make DRG more useful to a party, I'd love to hear it. But it sounds like you're only disappointed that other classes are parsing higher DPS than DRG on certain fights. If that's your complaint, then I'd respectfully suggest that you worry more about winning fights, and concentrate less on who's parsing highest.

You're going to have to start providing parses if you continue to talk in Absolutes, Athena. Again, it's not a matter of whether or not Monks are skilled or not, it's a matter of the fight mechanics outright prevent Monk from dealing optimum DPS and have a more punishing wind up than we do.


Because, I'm calling you out right now, you fail to take responsibility for the statements you make. This isn't even talking about doing the development work for them. We've got people of opposing opinions as to the actual dps outputs between your primary comparison marker here, which is monk. "I deal more damage on my monk and my monk is lesser geared." Is not substantial enough of a statment to make. You need to parse between your monk and Dragoon, or parse your Dragoon against a lesser geared monk and show us the data. You also have to display the use of this so-called Utility that's so important in action, otherwise, your statments fall flat, and amount to meaningless complaints on matters already slated to be addressed.

To put bluntly, you're blowing hot air with nothing to show for it, not even a recommendation. Just inane and blind demands with zero evidence or conceptual understanding of what's actually going and how to fix it. And it's infuriating, because I approached you thinking you had tackled this issue intellectually prepared, and what I get is the equivalent of a three year old holding a toy already going to the shop saying "mommy fix it and make it better!"

Considering you're a veteran member of this community, you should know better than to pull a Rokein. And sadly, even some of his complaints had better substance.

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The most upsetting part about this is that all you've done is stated an opinion, continue to conjecture unsupported 'facts' and leave no room for the discussion to advance past the argument/conformation bias stage.

If you don't have ideas concerning Utility for Dragoon, which will be the only balance it needs, honestly, then let's start breaking it down as to what utilities can be provided. Cause right now, I'll tell you. Monk and Dragoon ARE comparable, they've been in constant argument about outputs since the start due to how fragile and volatile Monk's DPS is. So the winning argument here is utility and how to add more on top of having the game's most consistent slow.

People are looking at raw potency too much, not considering the skill/spell speed portion of the equation, if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Monk and Dragoon ARE comparable, they've been in constant argument about outputs since the start due to how fragile and volatile Monk's DPS is.

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Again, no. See my previous post.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

People are looking at raw potency too much, not considering the skill/spell speed portion of the equation, if you ask me.
Again, no. See my previous post.

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I read the post, same applies to you. Show direct comparisons of comparably skilled Monk and Dragoon, during Titan, and resulting parse. I am not talking Potency comparisons. I'm talking raw DPS and damage totals here. Monk potentially suffers far greater from rotation interruption than Dragoon, and there are multiple cases in most fights in which this is a highly occurring problem, more so for monk who's more positionally dependent (which attributes to its higher skillcap.)

If you want to make substantiated claims, you gotta back it up. The onus is on the OP to provide evidence for the claims she makes. You're welcome to support her with the evidence if you wish. I want to see the numbers and incite others to do the same for the opposing arguments.

As a fairly knowledgeable Dragoon, I have a few things I agree with and I don't agree with:

1.) Blackmages are the powerhouses. I've never seen such sheer amounts of DPS. Without having to worry about melee mechanics, my God. It's beautiful.

2.) Bards are good DPS, but they aren't the highest. They're getting a nerf so hopefully it balances how easy they are to play, how useful they are, and how much DPS they do.

3.) Monks vs. Dragoon. Cry about BLM's power all you want, there will never be a time where you can look at a wiped fight and say: "Damn, if I were a monk instead of a Dragoon, we would've won." Neither class will ever be completely equal with the other, but that's something we'll have to deal with as time goes on and nerfs/buffs happen.

I would like Feint to actually be usable on something. I also wish we had our old Paralyze from 1.0 back. Both of those slowing incoming DPS when needed would add great utility and a fun mechanic to and otherwise vanilla DPS.

I think whenever a Dragoon uses Jump, it should have a 5% chance of landing wrong and breaking its' leg.