What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Pretty sure you're just a vocal minority tho, and that they won't change anything to please you. Just reading out of spite and boredom but the mere fact you want to criticize something "as brutally as possible" and think it's possible to rewrite a story entirely says a lot about y'all.

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"Reading out of spite" - yeah, and it shows.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Somehow I never really considered how Azem played into this whole mess until now, and now I'm left feeling baffled by how Yoshi seemingly dismissed the importance of what they had been doing in the period before/after the Final Days.

We know from their story about charging into an active volcano to stop it that they would go to extreme lengths to help people, that they seemed to find the sacrifices needed to summon Zodiark unacceptable even in the face of imminent destruction, and that they refused to take a side once Venat's faction and the Convocation were at odds with each other.

I feel like if they had known about the Sundering, they would not have just idly stood by unless we're dealing with some even deeper layers of causal loop shenanigans and they're also tied up in this mess somehow. Their knowing of our arrival to aid Themis/Elidibus is making me entertain possibilities that I would really rather not have come to fruition; the worst one being that they end up being revealed to be the "old friend" who sent Venat on an errand to Elpis specifically to set off the events there after we end up having to travel back in time again to solve some new problem and give them the long talk about what we're doing there.

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All seriousness my headcannon is that Azim went to Venat for help trying to stop the sacrifices to make Zodiark as they thought there must be a better way found out Venats plans and she murdered them to stop them interfering with the sundering

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

All seriousness my headcannon is that Azim went to Venat for help trying to stop the sacrifices to make Zodiark as they thought there must be a better way found out Venats plans and she murdered them to stop them interfering with the sundering

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And then Azem's lesser iteration helped her complete her mission while nodding like an automaton in agreement for everything she said or did. Wow, now that would be incredibly sad.

Only three catches ? I'm disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

My primary hopes are they quit pushing Venat/Hydaelyn as good and the Ancients as having deserved their fate. I don't expect a rewrite, but characters and text in the game (as well as the short stories I'm apprehensive about) can at least stop referring to that tragedy as a positive thing (or ideally even a reasonable course of action). ShB was much more nuanced. The journal entry for the Shadowbringers quest reads: "You wage a titanic battle not only against Hades, but the hopes and dreams of Ascian-kind, of which he is the keeper. In the end, however, your own unwavering conviction brings the ancient being low. You have done a great and terrible thing."

Plus there's Pandemonium, which has been another source of concern because the dialog with Themis seems to suggest that Azem knows about sundered self and that is definitely crossing a line for me. I suspect Yoshi-P thought everyone would love Venat and the idea of working with her and... no. I'm frustrated, to say the least, that after the neutral Azem we were presented with in ShB who chose neither side that there are some implications we did side with her after all (not to mention us outright siding with her in EW despite the fact that Hydaelyn represents everything the WoL and the Scions have historically been opposed to).

I'm going to state this in bold print: Azem working with Venat is so inconsistent with everything we know of the Azem soul that I would consider it a character and game breaking retcon.

Anyone who feels differently, I invite to replay through the game. I have been on an alt. Pay particularly close attention to the dialog surrounding the WoL, such as Thancred saying they fight for friends not nations, and basically Ardbert's entire arc in HW. Azem siding with Venat means the betrayal of everyone they love and it just wouldn't happen.

I get the impression after EW that Yoshi-P's vision of the WoL is a traveling murder hobo and I think the character and the story has been undermined as a result.

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Unfortunately, Square appears to be of the persuasion the fans who aren't fond of Ancients are. That Azem outright rejected the Convocation..... but merely was unable to respond to Venat's faction. They left themselves enough vague leeway, that they are now taking full advantage of to push a particular interpretation and that honestly leaves me rather steamed.

I like to console myself with the mental scenario that Azem was off saving some rad grapes when they got hit by the Sundering out of absolute nowhere, preventing them from saving the grapes.
Venat you monster! What'd the grapes do to you?!

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Pretty sure you're just a vocal minority tho, and that they won't change anything to please you. Just reading out of spite and boredom but the mere fact you want to criticize something "as brutally as possible" and think it's possible to rewrite a story entirely says a lot about y'all.

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https://media.discordapp.net/attachm.../unknown_1.png

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

Only three catches ? I'm disappointed.

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Me when I’m totally not losing “You sound stupid foh” “Heh… we got some boys”

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

"Remember us. Remember that we once lived… Also remember to watch out for that crazy guy Fandaniel. His pet bird caused the final days. I was there with my good friend Hythlodaeus and we ran into you because you got sent to the past by our good friend Elidibus. We went there to meet our good friend Hermes and his pet bird. Hermes's bird was capable of destroying entire planets because she had emotion energy, a concept so advanced only Hermes and an elephant knew it existed. Hermes was going to let the bird destroy our planet because he wanted to do an experiment. And then he was going to memory wipe all of us until Venat flew in on her magical dog and escaped with you. She then for some reason decided not to tell anyone about what happened and instead doomed us all to die, including our good friend Azem who fell into a Volcano while trying to find the source of the noise even though Venat knew all along because she put a magic microchip on Hermes’s bird. She then became Hydaelyn and sundered the world because a bunch of weak humans who die after 80 years were better equipped to deal with the threat than immortal gods who could create whatever they wanted at will. Except the only “human” that could actually stand up to Meteion was 9/14ths of our good friend Azem who also needed Hydaelyns blessing to survive along with my great-grandson Zenos Viator Galvus who had Hydaelyns blessing too, except his was reverse-engineered in a Garlean laboratory. And he was a good friend."

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Bless you for reposting this quote, I am laughing my ass off all over again.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Their knowing of our arrival to aid Themis/Elidibus is making me entertain possibilities that I would really rather not have come to fruition; the worst one being that they end up being revealed to be the "old friend" who sent Venat on an errand to Elpis specifically to set off the events there after we end up having to travel back in time again to solve some new problem and give them the long talk about what we're doing there.

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I don't understand their love of time loops. I'd consider a loop where the WoL becomes whole just to go back in time to become the Azem of old to be one of the worst possible endings, not the least of which because I don't know who would feel satisfied by it. Hate the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL becomes one at the end of their journey and returns to the unsundered world. Love the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL goes back in time and not only does nothing to save them, but ensures this miserable time loop continues in perpetuity. Ambivalent? Well, your WoL gets no happy ending, there's no 'retirement' for them, there's no returning to the aetherial sea in any meaningful capacity, it's an endless hamster wheel of them going through the Final Days (twice), the Sundering, and everything in between for eternity.

Not to mention I hate paradoxes and this would be yet another one.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I don't understand their love of time loops. I'd consider a loop where the WoL becomes whole just to go back in time to become the Azem of old to be one of the worst possible endings, not the least of which because I don't know who would feel satisfied by it. Hate the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL becomes one at the end of their journey and returns to the unsundered world. Love the Ancients? Too bad, your WoL goes back in time and not only does nothing to save them, but ensures this miserable time loop continues in perpetuity. Ambivalent? Well, your WoL gets no happy ending, there's no 'retirement' for them, there's no returning to the aetherial sea in any meaningful capacity, it's an endless hamster wheel of them going through the Final Days (twice), the Sundering, and everything in between for eternity.

Not to mention I hate paradoxes and this would be yet another one.

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That sounds awful. The loop/paradox thing really bothered me. I'm particularly not a fan of characters being given information of the future because it means there is no proper genesis of that information.

The only role quests I've finished so far are ranged and healer, but I'm getting the distinct impression that, despite the actual plots being lackluster, the themes within are far more consistent and realistic than whatever the msq was trying to force feed us. For the healer quest, particularly, Fordola and Arenvald were more compelling characters than the scions could ever hope to be, especially because we actually got the sense that Fordola's life was in real danger. Sure, she didn't die or anything so it wasn't a super dark storyline but the moments where the dread was taking over did get me concerned for her. It made her so much more relatable than the scions, who I assume are supposed to just be the poster children for how to perfectly respond to grief and not be affected by despair thus never actually being at risk of becoming a blasphemy at any point. That's so boring. I'd much rather aspire to be someone who can overcome problems, rather than trying to emulate someone who never has never had them (yes, this is hyperbole) because I inherently can't relate to the scions in that aspect.

The scions' issues 100% of the time boil down to "I'm right and no one else gets it," meanwhile Fordola has actually had to cope with the consequences of her actions and trying to overcome her past, even though she knows she can't be truly forgiven. That's LEAGUES above any of the scions, except maybe pre-EW Thancred who used to have the guilt over Minfilia's parents plaguing him before he turned into cardboard.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

The only role quests I've finished so far are ranged and healer, but I'm getting the distinct impression that, despite the actual plots being lackluster, the themes within are far more consistent and realistic than whatever the msq was trying to force feed us. For the healer quest, particularly, Fordola and Arenvald were more compelling characters than the scions could ever hope to be, especially because we actually got the sense that Fordola's life was in real danger. Sure, she didn't die or anything so it wasn't a super dark storyline but the moments where the dread was taking over did get me concerned for her. It made her so much more relatable than the scions, who I assume are supposed to just be the poster children for how to perfectly respond to grief and not be affected by despair thus never actually being at risk of becoming a blasphemy at any point. That's so boring. I'd much rather aspire to be someone who can overcome problems, rather than trying to emulate someone who never has them because I inherently can't relate to the scions in that aspect.

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It really depends on which role quests you do. Phys range, Caster, Healer were imo the best role quests of EW. Phys melee and tank were both very poor. The completion quest follows a similar theme that other quests in garlemald have taken. Which I know some in here have already found lackluster.

I've only done the caster one so far, leveling other classes for them

But from what i've seen at least the caster one continued with HW plot ideas, and i liked how they mentioned that some people do use faith to not fall into despair. Im not religious by any means but I find that a refreshing viewpoint after many games and modern times going full jrpg 'kill the god fuck religion' type deal

Only issue is that i wish the blasphemy wasnt a full recolor, but its not the worst thing and was fitting for the HW areas

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

I've only done the caster one so far, leveling other classes for them

But from what i've seen at least the caster one continued with HW plot ideas, and i liked how they mentioned that some people do use faith to not fall into despair. Im not religious by any means but I find that a refreshing viewpoint after many games and modern times going full jrpg 'kill the god fuck religion' type deal

Only issue is that i wish the blasphemy wasnt a full recolor, but its not the worst thing and was fitting for the HW areas

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You know, for all the hate EW gets there are good parts of the story like the caster role quest. The whole quest line felt a lot more nuanced than the EW MSQ. Near the beginning of the questline I assumed it was going to go full "kill the god fuck religion" but I was pleasantly surprised how it ended.

I've only bothered to do the tank and caster ones so far but the caster one beats the tank one by a landslide. There's no way to make me care about Kan-E-Senna or the absurdities of how things work in tree land. Good riddance to Gridania, may the story never take us back there.

Ishgard on the other hand was refreshing to revisit my favourite locales from Heavensward and as annoying as those escort quests are, at least I got to briefly hang out with Estinien. I wish he was the main party's tank instead of Thancred, or goodness forbid G'raha Tia. He's the Cecil to Estinien's Kain, the two fit together well in the same party.

While I doubt those two would ever have the back and forths Estinien had with Ysayle, at least Estinien and Aymeric can hold organic conversations with each other in contrast to how distanced he is from the Scions. As far as posterboys are concerned, I'd much rather put up with twitter gushing over the likes of either those two instead of someone like G'raha who is just...unheroic in both appearance and mannerisms. All his deeds in Shadowbringers are reduced to nothing every time we're forced into another tail wagging sparkly eye scene where he's whining to Krile about how much he wants to chase after my character.

I recall at least once we did have some kind of dinner scene with Aymeric that was interrupted by something. In a total reversal of Endwalker's writing style, it was a slow paced and fitting break from action where we got to spend some time with a character who had been through quite a lot. Subtle, elegant, not much that makes me react negatively to him. He speaks to you like a normal individual, a rare occurrence these days, and without obsessively hammering the point of how much he cares for you!! every other scene.

No one realistically behaves this way, which is why Alisae and G'raha Tia come across as so grating at times. You don't have to tell someone how much you care that often unless it's a piece of straight up fanfiction written for the express purpose of eliciting a sense of comfort. Endwalker is an expansion about the end of the world (allegedly). That kind of stuff didn't need to be as prominent as it was. Instead of repeating it over and over, they could have saved it for a single critical moment and had so much more impact.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

As far as posterboys are concerned, I'd much rather put up with twitter gushing over the likes of either those two instead of someone like G'raha who is just...unheroic in both appearance and mannerisms.

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Firmly agreed.

For reference:

https://c.tenor.com/36GaGgQfdC8AAAAd...al-fantasy.gif

Would he even be as popular as he is if not for existing to fawn over player self inserts? I have my doubts.

For the Doma ranged DPS rolequest, I liked how people had a beef with Hien and didn't "forgive and forget", and one person actually tried to kill him. Would like to see more of that. Sadly the story ended in the usual fashion, with the hero giving a speech and then all of his detractors forgetting their grievances and becoming enthusiastic supporters. In FFXIV, it seems that heroes can't have anything less than a 100% approval rating.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Phys melee and tank were both very poor.

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I thought that the melee DPS quest in Limsa was really fun. It wasn't yet another sob story. No attempt at "themes" to fall flat on its face on. Just a fun monster hunting adventure with an entertaining character. Also had a decently entertaining solo instance, trying to kill the fireballs as quickly as possible. Best rolequest.

The tank story in Gridania was meh but the solo instance was at least vaguely challenging. Also had me in the edge of my seat towards the end when the bodyguard was at 10% HP and taunted the boss away out of the arena. I thought he was going to sacrifice himself. Maybe I'm just too used to WoW where NPCs can canonically die during gameplay. Warbrave Oro dying right in front of me in Highmountain, or that Pandaren widower being consumed by the Sha in Townlong Steppes was more impactful to me than most cutscene deaths.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

For the Doma ranged DPS rolequest, I liked how people had a beef with Hien and didn't "forgive and forget", and one person actually tried to kill him. Would like to see more of that. Sadly the story ended in the usual fashion, with the hero giving a speech and then all of his detractors forgetting their grievances and becoming enthusiastic supporters. In FFXIV, it seems that heroes can't have anything less than a 100% approval rating.



I thought that the melee DPS quest in Limsa was really fun. It wasn't yet another sob story. No attempt at "themes" to fall flat on its face on. Just a fun monster hunting adventure with an entertaining character. Also had a decently entertaining solo instance, trying to kill the fireballs as quickly as possible. Best rolequest.

The tank story in Gridania was meh but the solo instance was at least vaguely challenging. Also had me in the edge of my seat towards the end when the bodyguard was at 10% HP and taunted the boss away out of the arena. I thought he was going to sacrifice himself. Maybe I'm just too used to WoW where NPCs can canonically die during gameplay. Warbrave Oro dying right in front of me in Highmountain, or that Pandaren widower being consumed by the Sha in Townlong Steppes was more impactful to me than most cutscene deaths.

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I really disliked the fact every model for the role quests, and even the finale were just pallete swaps. When was the last time we saw a new model or asset that wasnt a dungeon boss?

Apologies doublepost but on mobile I cant edit. I didnt really like EW's role quests, although some were better than others (like phys ranged). They suffer from the same issue as the msq, a complete lack of believability. Oooh X is turning into a blasphemy? Haha no they're not. Pranked. Excited to see further the big boss is? Ha you wont be. The constant fakeouts in character deaths has me sceptical anything bad could happen to ANYbody on our side and I'm still yet to see that. The other thing I didnt like, aside from every mob in every quest being recycled from amaurot (same as every mob in the msq, which makes sense from a lore perspective but definately feels like a cut corner on dev time), even the end bosses were recycled. One was a recoloured archaeotania. One was a.. HoH boss. None of them were original. And then, after doing all of the quests, what's the reward? You fight a recolour of a boss from Amaurot and the Garlean story gets conveniently wrapped up and finished. Oh and you get a title that wouldnt look out of place in an ERP community. Thanks. Is it too much to ask for some new monster types, or even new types of monsters that already exist? It's not the 90s anymore. I'm not excited over fighting pallet swap enemies. As much as I agree with everybody else that EW was a contradicting mess of plotholes and fan service, the cut corners in gameplay elements annoy me almost as much as the plot does. I remember seeing the big morbol monsters in elpis and thinking "oooh that's a new mob! Nice!!" And then doing (I think) hw st mocianne arblretum and seeing the same mob there. I was like oh.... if you look for cut corners like this you will see them absolutely everywhere. So I advise against doing that for your own sake lol

All in all it left me with a sense of "I'm fighting things I've faught before, I'm being told things I've been told before, and I'm being gaslit into feeling something about it." Which after msq really left a bad taste in my mouth. Especially because everywhere I turned, i could only see praise and people who had complaints were ridiculed or ignored. Ultimately, I think I set my bar WAY too high for this expansion, and now my bar is on the floor so hopefully I'll enjoy 7.0 a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Apologies doublepost but on mobile I cant edit. I didnt really like EW's role quests, although some were better than others (like phys ranged). They suffer from the same issue as the msq, a complete lack of believability. Oooh X is turning into a blasphemy? Haha no they're not. Pranked. Excited to see further the big boss is? Ha you wont be. The constant fakeouts in character deaths has me sceptical anything bad could happen to ANYbody on our side and I'm still yet to see that. The other thing I didnt like, aside from every mob in every quest being recycled from amaurot (same as every mob in the msq, which makes sense from a lore perspective but definately feels like a cut corner on dev time), even the end bosses were recycled. One was a recoloured archaeotania. One was a.. HoH boss. None of them were original. And then, after doing all of the quests, what's the reward? You fight a recolour of a boss from Amaurot and the Garlean story gets conveniently wrapped up and finished. Oh and you get a title that wouldnt look out of place in an ERP community. Thanks. Is it too much to ask for some new monster types, or even new types of monsters that already exist? It's not the 90s anymore. I'm not excited over fighting pallet swap enemies. As much as I agree with everybody else that EW was a contradicting mess of plotholes and fan service, the cut corners in gameplay elements annoy me almost as much as the plot does. I remember seeing the big morbol monsters in elpis and thinking "oooh that's a new mob! Nice!!" And then doing (I think) hw st mocianne arblretum and seeing the same mob there. I was like oh.... if you look for cut corners like this you will see them absolutely everywhere. So I advise against doing that for your own sake lol

All in all it left me with a sense of "I'm fighting things I've faught before, I'm being told things I've been told before, and I'm being gaslit into feeling something about it." Which after msq really left a bad taste in my mouth. Especially because everywhere I turned, i could only see praise and people who had complaints were ridiculed or ignored. Ultimately, I think I set my bar WAY too high for this expansion, and now my bar is on the floor so hopefully I'll enjoy 7.0 a lot more.

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If I may, the Final Days as a whole felt really lackluster. We only saw a few zones affected by it , which for as much as it was present in marketing/hype for the game seems underwhelming. If I had to describe Endwalker with one word it would be "rushed". I personally feel like so much got addressed without satisfying conclusions that I can't say the story was good at all. I also will never see it as a good thing if you have to clarify story points in interviews later.

6.1 made it worse to me with more story that I just felt didn't hit right and characters starting to grate on my nerves, seriously can I take out a restraining order for G'raha Tia?

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Originally Posted by Xeronia

If I may, the Final Days as a whole felt really lackluster. We only saw a few zones affected by it , which for as much as it was present in marketing/hype for the game seems underwhelming.

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I actually went into detail on this a few months back on another thread. The Final Days requires large amounts of despair. All the old areas had one thing in common..we helped fix a lot of their issues. The weather never changed because there wasn't enough despair to feed on, because we took care of a lot of sources a while back. Garlean invasion, issues with the local tribes, a 1000 year war, two countries subjugated by Garleans, magatama shenanigans, Omega, Shinryu, Bozja, etc etc etc. There wasn't enough fuel in those areas for the Final Days to actually manifest like it did in Thavnair or Garlemald. Hell, Sharlayan didn't even get it because the people there were already living pretty happily.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I actually went into detail on this a few months back on another thread. The Final Days requires large amounts of despair. All the old areas had one thing in common..we helped fix a lot of their issues. The weather never changed because there wasn't enough despair to feed on, because we took care of a lot of sources a while back. Garlean invasion, issues with the local tribes, a 1000 year war, two countries subjugated by Garleans, magatama shenanigans, Omega, Shinryu, Bozja, etc etc etc. There wasn't enough fuel in those areas for the Final Days to actually manifest like it did in Thavnair or Garlemald. Hell, Sharlayan didn't even get it because the people there were already living pretty happily.

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Um….slavery still exists in Uldah. There’s still major racism in Gridania. The brothel problems in Doma etc. Like…this is some major headcanon being spouted lol. I think the far more likelier outcome is they just didn’t care to.Also...a single trade deal was enough to be the catalyst to the thavnair final days. If something that minor can cause it uldah and gridania alone shouldve been teeming with blasphemies.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I actually went into detail on this a few months back on another thread. The Final Days requires large amounts of despair. All the old areas had one thing in common..we helped fix a lot of their issues. The weather never changed because there wasn't enough despair to feed on, because we took care of a lot of sources a while back. Garlean invasion, issues with the local tribes, a 1000 year war, two countries subjugated by Garleans, magatama shenanigans, Omega, Shinryu, Bozja, etc etc etc. There wasn't enough fuel in those areas for the Final Days to actually manifest like it did in Thavnair or Garlemald. Hell, Sharlayan didn't even get it because the people there were already living pretty happily.

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I am going to then question "Why Thavnair?" Thavnair has a whole area devoted to what I think would be the logical counter measure to being overcome by despair as per the lore, Dancers. Ranaa after finishing the story had you done Dancer actually eludes to she was doing this for people in Kugane. It is possible maybe only Troupe Falsiam knew this art but as it is never clarified...I would have at least liked to see one throw away line all the dancers weren't present to help or something.

Chiming after having watched the FFXVI trailer to say: those are the kind of vibes that drew me deeper into FFXIV's world around the time the story took us to Ishgard. FFXVI looks like it'll be pretty much all I wanted besides having a party, but everything else seems to more than make up for it. Hopefully FFXIV can find it's own way back to that soon, and not spiral further down the path I've seen it heading lately.

Our hero: traditionally handsome, no strange dissonance vibes like you get from characters like G'raha where the voice isn't matching the appearance.

Our poster(girls): Shiva looks to be massively improved, and the return of romance as a plot point is refreshing to see. In this case Clive's love interest is another blond with short hair but unlike Y'shtola let's hope that her apparent cold upbringing makes for a more interesting personality besides just being a lore exposition tool.

The World: gorgeous, medieval, with a dash of Ivalician political intrigue. Perfect. Though this time the empire wears white and blue instead of red and black.

As for FFXIV...we have the scions, a world map with most nations ideologically aligned with one another and the void. Maybe. They still might ship us off to Meracydia or the New World (and leave the clouds over most of Ilsabard there to stay).

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Apologies doublepost but on mobile I cant edit. I didnt really like EW's role quests, although some were better than others (like phys ranged). They suffer from the same issue as the msq, a complete lack of believability. Oooh X is turning into a blasphemy? Haha no they're not. Pranked. Excited to see further the big boss is? Ha you wont be. The constant fakeouts in character deaths has me sceptical anything bad could happen to ANYbody on our side and I'm still yet to see that. The other thing I didnt like, aside from every mob in every quest being recycled from amaurot (same as every mob in the msq, which makes sense from a lore perspective but definately feels like a cut corner on dev time), even the end bosses were recycled. One was a recoloured archaeotania. One was a.. HoH boss. None of them were original. And then, after doing all of the quests, what's the reward? You fight a recolour of a boss from Amaurot and the Garlean story gets conveniently wrapped up and finished. Oh and you get a title that wouldnt look out of place in an ERP community. Thanks. Is it too much to ask for some new monster types, or even new types of monsters that already exist? It's not the 90s anymore. I'm not excited over fighting pallet swap enemies. As much as I agree with everybody else that EW was a contradicting mess of plotholes and fan service, the cut corners in gameplay elements annoy me almost as much as the plot does. I remember seeing the big morbol monsters in elpis and thinking "oooh that's a new mob! Nice!!" And then doing (I think) hw st mocianne arblretum and seeing the same mob there. I was like oh.... if you look for cut corners like this you will see them absolutely everywhere. So I advise against doing that for your own sake lol
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I think the only notable non palette swap blasphemy creature is the second and third boss in vanaspati, the elephant head spider/cricket thing and the 1st beast 2 : electric boogaloo. Which is a tad disappointing as i liked how surreal they were. Like especially the second boss did feel like something from a nightmare, imagine if we got more of that!. If you really wanted to go full horror a lot of blasphemy/telephoroi's could resemble people but off in some way, proportions are wrong. Full uncanny valley but thats more from my own nightmares than anything else

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Chiming after having watched the FFXVI trailer to say: those are the kind of vibes that drew me deeper into FFXIV's world around the time the story took us to Ishgard. FFXVI looks like it'll be pretty much all I wanted besides having a party, but everything else seems to more than make up for it. Hopefully FFXIV can find it's own way back to that soon, and not spiral further down the path I've seen it heading lately.

Our hero: traditionally handsome, no strange dissonance vibes like you get from characters like G'raha where the voice isn't matching the appearance.

Our poster(girls): Shiva looks to be massively improved, and the return of romance as a plot point is refreshing to see. In this case Clive's love interest is another blond with short hair but unlike Y'shtola let's hope that her apparent cold upbringing makes for a more interesting personality besides just being a lore exposition tool.

The World: gorgeous, medieval, with a dash of Ivalician political intrigue. Perfect. Though this time the empire wears white and blue instead of red and black.

As for FFXIV...we have the scions, a world map with most nations ideologically aligned with one another and the void. Maybe. They still might ship us off to Meracydia or the New World (and leave the clouds over most of Ilsabard there to stay).

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I have to admit, in spite of my reservations with XIV and Yoshi, it does excite me, especially with the variety of nations they've written for it, and the fact that it has some AoT vibes with how the Dominants work, coupled with the political intrigue. My hope is that, unshackled from the pressures and desires that constrain XIV (reflecting what they perceive as the fanbase's demands), they will be able to deliver a more polished and intricate experience.

I like what we've seen of it so far. I just hope that if it does well then the FFXIV team will feel more comfortable being a bit bolder in regards to FFXIV's story and worldbuilding.

The thought occurred to me that the reason I've never been able to buy into the Ancients not knowing sorrow is because that is all we're ever shown of them save for a brief time in Elpis. What we consistently see throughout the game is the unsundered don't have a reprieve to the extent that as the hero of the tale we cannot or will not save them even when we're theoretically given the opportunity to do so. It's the Final Days, the sacrifices, the Sundering, the purgatory within Zodiark, the next 12k years of the unsundered toiling to restore their world and everyone they loved, etc.

One of the spirits on the moon says, "Such tragedy, yet no catharsis!" Which accurately represents how I felt about Endwalker. The Scions, by contrast, don't experience much more than the average person. Matter of fact, with the exception of Estinien and G'raha, I've lost more loved ones than any of the Scions have so it's difficult for me to take them seriously when it comes to the subjects of suffering and despair. They are clad in impenetrable plot armor and by virtue of joining themselves at the hip to the WoL have nothing but wins handed to them. Aside from a few select moments, usually involving the WoL failing to defeat a foe such as Zenos or Ran'jit, they don't even experience setbacks. The protagonists plow through all adversity with relative ease, usually one-shot the antagonist, and afterwards have no ill effects. It's laughable to me that the most PTSD the WoL has is accepting drinks from strangers.

This idyllic life the Ancients were supposed to have had we never see. As beautiful as Elpis was, it was fraught with issues. This "perfect paradise" where they knew "naught but bliss" is told to us, by Venat, in a cutscene comprised of strawmen from her POV. Yet, I'm supposed to accept this as accurate despite none of the preceding or proceeding narrative depicting the Ancients or the unsundered world as such?

I've often pondered how many writing sins Endwalker committed despite people claiming that if you didn't like it it's because you're a low intellectual who doesn't understand philosophy. I know "show don't tell" is a significant one for me that EW is riddled with from start to finish, which is particularly unacceptable given these events and the reasons for them are the foundation of the game's lore.

As we've said before, if the ancients were truly without strife, suffering, and sorrow then the seats of Elidibus (emissary, reconciler) and Pastharot (law and order) would not need to exist.

Pandaemoniumn or there things like the debate on intervention in ShB makes no sense either if they knew no strife

I think it's because people take claims driven by nostalgia, like Emet's, or the ghosts on the moon, or moments where wounds are still raw, like the strawman ancients, which refer to perfection or paradise etc., and just run with it. To me it is very clear why, compared to the sundered world, they would see their world as relatively far more idyllic and refer to it as such. It doesn't need to be capital P perfection to qualify as such - it was a world that was better in many ways and which they miss - but oh no, they used the dread P word, doomed, now all speed ahead to the Plenty train crash. :rolleyes:

I just legit find the concept anti-thetical to what characters preach if you think about it. It inherently implies you should stop making things better at some point which feels so antithetical to the whole 'for those who walk after' spiel constantly uttered in the game.

It just reminds me of another japanese franchise that went down a even further route with its obsession with immortality/improvement bad

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

I just legit find the concept anti-thetical to what characters preach if you think about it. It inherently implies you should stop making things better at some point which feels so antithetical to the whole 'for those who walk after' spiel constantly uttered in the game.

It just reminds me of another japanese franchise that went down a even further route with its obsession with immortality/improvement bad

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What franchise out of curiosity?

I just can never see eye-to-eye with such a message because it seems so arbitrary to me. Or are only the protagonists allowed to invent things and cure diseases (John Globalcitizen world here we come if you dare to cure cancer!)? The same deal with claims of 'arrogance'. Is the ideal society the Azim Steppes, or are they also arrogant for controlling the lives of their herd animals?

In any case, I've unsubbed due to the story and its direction (which has been torn apart to its atomic essence for the last 500 pages) and gameplay not appealing to me much anymore,with only raid obligations keeping me around this long thanks to so many missed nights and having to scramble to find people mid-tier.

I certainly thought I was totally alone in December as it all unfolded, though it seems like the honeymoon period ended. Have you noticed? There seems to be more desperate attempts to go "you're just a minority!" and the main defense is unironic "to be fair you need to have a 200 IQ to enjoy Rick and MortyEndwalker and be familiar with Nihilism/Nietzsche, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Christianity, the book Utopia, the works of Plato and Homer ... you just don't understand!"

It's been fun and a comfort to read all your posts and funpost with you all. Never forget the Great Moon Disappointment, the Subversions of Expectation, Childish Strawman "Looks The Same So Is The Same" Planet To Justify Genocide, and the Burning of TeldrassilAmaurot.

https://c.tenor.com/vHMD9o7RmfYAAAAC/snake-salute.gif

Another interview for those still interested - seems like even Yoshi was not completely happy with how Y'shtola was presented.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Another interview for those still interested - seems like even Yoshi was not completely happy with how Y'shtola was presented.

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Thank you for sharing this. Finally even he is realizing that something is off with those sort of scenes. If only they had cared a lot earlier about not turning G'raha Tia into a joke but that ship has long since sailed. I am thankful that he has rightfully gone against indulging the people who call characters like her "mommy" because going down that path just makes for characters that are palatable *only* to the twitter roleplay crowd and insufferable anyone who wants a story that takes itself seriously.

The problem is so much damage has already been done. I can only hope that the return of writers from FFXVI results in overall better storytelling and development. I am also happy that Adventure Plates will be added to dungeons, but I hope they figure out how to stop them constantly resetting before they do this.

I'm very confused about what statement they're trying to make regarding the Ancients. (Sorry if this is a bit incoherent, I'm tired.)

Prior to EW, I assumed they would ultimately make Emet-Selch out to be more of an unreliable narrator; that their world was not so idyllic, and that their aversion to displaying individuality, working for the common good and trying to put themselves "above" base, negative emotions and such was actually a form of repression of basic human nature that created anger, resentment and instability and would inevitably lead to their collapse. I wondered if the phoenix from the Tales from the Shadows story with its tortured soul was perhaps a foreshadowing; mayhap many similar likewise souls festered within the lifestream and caused the "corruption" that "stacked to the heavens", or hinted towards an underground anarchic sort of resistance with Fandaniel at its head, unhappy with the current state of affairs.

Hilariously inaccurate as it is now, it was the only way I could conceive the Ancients might have failed, and that might show why mortals are better suited to carrying on mankind's legacy, since otherwise it just becomes a bizarrely hypocritical story in which we condemn the remaining Ancients for merely trying to do what we are; to survive, and protect our people, and not really being any less suitable for it (more so, if anything.) We fancy ourselves heroes in defiance of fate while never really acknowledging that our victory is built on the bones of the Ancients, and our "victory" in the first place... is just down to a matter of luck, really, in that somehow the sundering makes us more adept at manipulating some rogue form of energy. I can't really find much satisfaction in a story where it's simply a case of "well, that's unfortunate for them", and their cheap shot right at the end to make them seem less sympathetic and say "see, they can't handle the difficulties in life!" falls flat and just doesn't feel believable when they go out of their way to thoroughly humanise the Ancients through the Ascians, Elpis and Pandaemonium and show us they very much do have their own struggles, and how similar we actually are.

From my point of view, they should have gone one of two ways: applied the dynamis angle more strongly, making the sundering a tragic necessity that is acknowledged as such, rather than some self-righteous, genocidal judgement (and perhaps offer a a potential chance of redemption akin to the destroyed stars), or played the "can't handle negativity" slant straight as I said earlier and have them doom themselves from the outset, rather than some peculiar, weak combination of the two filled with plot holes. The race we are shown do not match the actions they take in the story.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Hilariously inaccurate as it is now, it was the only way I could conceive the Ancients might have failed, and that might show why mortals are better suited to carrying on mankind's legacy, since otherwise it just becomes a bizarrely hypocritical story in which we condemn the remaining Ancients for merely trying to do what we are; to survive, and protect our people, and not really being any less suitable for it (more so, if anything.) We fancy ourselves heroes in defiance of fate while never really acknowledging that our victory is built on the bones of the Ancients, and our "victory" in the first place... is just down to a matter of luck, really, in that somehow the sundering makes us more adept at manipulating some rogue form of energy. I can't really find much satisfaction in a story where it's simply a case of "well, that's unfortunate for them",

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Funnily enough, this reading in a vacuum is exactly how I took (and still take) how Shadowbringers lays out the situation, and why I thought it was profound and excellent - laying out that situation (minus the "condemnation" EW adds), putting forth a scenario where there were no true villains as the culmination of the expansion titled Jet-Black Villains. It's effective and challenging when embraced as a tragedy; that in finishing off the Ancients, we had done "a great and terrible thing." And the tacit acknowledging that this situation is fundamentally a tragedy where nobody actually deserved to lose, and showing compassion to Emet at the end as a result. And the overall feeling of validation to those whose bones we built our survival on, and gratitude for what they had done, and understanding that they deserved to be remembered and admired, rather than deliberately wiped from history as they were.

Then EW tosses in the judgmental element to justify Hydaelyn, and it turns into, well, exactly what you laid out, and deeply, deeply unpleasant. Death to Cookingway.

I think understanding and embracing the idea that our victory essentially comes down to pure luck rather than some strange, nebulous idea of merit through suffering we had that made us "stronger" than the ones who succumbed to the Song would have done a lot to salve the wounds, and made it a much more compassionate scenario overall, but, well, heroic fantasy gonna heroic fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

snip.

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You are quite right, I was going to say they did indeed actually go this way during the climax in Amaurot with Emet (but my post was perilously long as it is), and that, for the reasons you eloquently outlined, is a huge part of the reason why SHB and its ending are so beloved even now. Emet-Selch's self-awareness and his dialogue about the victor writing the tale is still one of the best pieces of writing in the game to this day.

...which honestly makes the slapdash revisions in Endwalker to make everything much more simplistic and justifiable all the more galling. Why?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Another interview for those still interested - seems like even Yoshi was not completely happy with how Y'shtola was presented.

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An interesting and expected but no less disappointing confirmation that they have been writing the characters based on what they think FF fans on social media want to see rather than what actually suits the characters themselves.

I didn't necessarily hate Emet and Hythlodaeus in Elpis, but I wonder what we might have gotten without the fanservice lens, especially with Hyth.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

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This really is what gets me about EW. They really went out of their way to portray Ancient society as idyllic and the only things that could make it seem otherwise were either silly little quirks or mostly justified, and the only true condemnations are so weakly justified as to be hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

From my point of view, they should have gone one of two ways: applied the dynamis angle more strongly, making the sundering a tragic necessity that is acknowledged as such, rather than some self-righteous, genocidal judgement (and perhaps offer a a potential chance of redemption akin to the destroyed stars), or played the "can't handle negativity" slant straight as I said earlier and have them doom themselves from the outset, rather than some peculiar, weak combination of the two filled with plot holes. The race we are shown do not match the actions they take in the story.

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My view on this is they shouldn't've leaned so hard on trying to justify it. They didn't do a good job of it, and they had another approach available to them, which was to allow for the possibility of sabotage and/or the Sundering being an accident. Couple this with how Elidibus being the heart seemed to erode away his persona to some extent, and they could've mirrored this approach in Hydaelyn to produce something like Yunalesca - a well meaning antagonist whose methods were nonetheless flawed or at the least disagreeable to some degree, connecting this to primal powers like tempering and a zeal to fulfil her directive. Although this is down to personal taste at the end of the day, I wouldn't've been much happier if they genuinely tried to make the ancient world a crypto-dystopia, as it'd undermine the sympathy built in SHB for the Ascians and, more broadly, the ancients. There's been one too many games I've played which take this approach, and it just ends up being a case of "woohoo they're gone! they had it coming!" Bizarrely, some take this approach with the ancients anyway, and I can't say it makes a lick of sense to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That isn't to say I never think such a theme would fit, but in this case it'd just undo a lot of what made me like SHB's storytelling.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I didn't necessarily hate Emet and Hythlodaeus in Elpis, but I wonder what we might have gotten without the fanservice lens, especially with Hyth.

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My hope is that they stop obsessing so much over this and instead think about what suits the character, as obsessing over what this or that site likes ends up just agglomerating fan headcanons/tastes into a character rather than letting them be their own authentic thing.