What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’m not sure how resorting to mass genocide and permanently shattering the world is “playing it safe.”

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Making the mother of all gambits here, Jack. Can't fret over every soul. :^)

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Venat played it safe. She gambled on our time-line prevailing, on the other hand had she confronted Hermes and the Convocation there is no telling what Hermes might have started doing.

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How was it safe? She had no idea whether or not the WoL would be able to defeat Meteion, in fact, the future the WoL described should have horrified Venat rather than fascinated her. A time traveler tells you events you set in motion 12k years ago resulted in the genocide of your own race, the extinction of 7-9 of the reflections (depending on if you consider the 13th and the near obliteration of the First), the Final Days returning, and the WoL having to go back in time because they're at that "we have no idea WTF to do" point certainly would not inspire confidence in me.

Her reasons for not confronting Hermes weren't good enough, especially after we knew from Elidibus he was only credited with discovering the Final Days manifested in areas with weak currents. Emet could've apprehended him and he could've been interrogated by the Convocation. Unfortunately, Venat undermined everyone to the detriment of all. I'd argue in many ways the sundering was worse than the Final Days. I'll never understand how she is not the main antagonist of the series.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'd argue in many ways the sundering was worse than the Final Days.

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Nah, I'll fight to the end against that argument.

Hermes is a mass murderer on a heretofore incalculable scale. Even if we give him a pass for the deaths of 25% of his race that was caused by the Sundering, and the millions that died with each Rejoining or any other cataclysm caused by the Ascians...

We know of at least two stars that directly died out because of his actions, and Meteion planned to end the entirely of the universe itself, with Hermes seeing this as a "valid" action.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Nah, I'll fight to the end against that argument.

Hermes is a mass murderer on a heretofore incalculable scale. Even if we give him a pass for the deaths of 25% of his race that was caused by the Sundering, and the millions that died with each Rejoining or any other cataclysm caused by the Ascians...

We know of at least two stars that directly died out because of his actions, and Meteion planned to end the entirely of the universe itself, with Hermes seeing this as a "valid" action.

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I'm not talking about the universe, I'm talking about Etheirys. Especially as Zodiark had forestalled the Final Days. Venat ushered in endless unnecessary death due to her crisis of faith in her people. The sundering persists even after Meteion's defeat.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm not talking about the universe, I'm talking about Etheirys. Especially as Zodiark had forestalled the Final Days. Venat ushered in endless unnecessary death due to her crisis of faith in her people. The sundering persists even after Meteion's defeat.

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I mean, if we're going to compare the Final Days to the Sundering, then it makes no sense to omit the scale. It's like saying the "Chicago Fire was worse than the Bubonic Plague" because we're only talking about Chicago. Even with that in mind, Venat's actions (suspect as they were) are specifically stated to be done to find a more permanent end to the Final Days. Yeah, Zodiark held the world together for 12,000 years but what, exactly, was he holding the world together from?

Like I said. The "Sundering was worse than Final Days" and "Venat was worse than Hermes" arguments are where I draw the line.

I'm not arguing in defense of Hermes and you should well know by now I detest his character as well. I'm saying from a foundational lore perspective of Etheirys, Venat's crimes begin from the moment she kept quiet about the Final Days and persist into the present with no current sign of ending. At some point, the death tally as a result of the sundering will overtake that of the Final Days if it hasn't already.

You can draw whatever lines you like. I'll even argue that morally Venat was worse than Hermes because she knew the outcome of it all and still chose to do nothing differently, which was a long game plan of hers as opposed to Hermes arguably snapping in the moment. You're also ignoring that Venat's actions were due to the fear of her people becoming The Plenty, it wasn't all just about the Song of Oblivion.

I'd consider the Sundering to be far worse in terms of the broader consequences. Hermes and Meteion may have set everything in motion but they could have been stopped simply by Venat speaking up and sharing the knowledge that she held.

I'm pretty sure that it's illegal in many countries to withhold information that could help solve or prevent a murder. How interesting, then, that the game ordinarily loves copying and pasting real world concepts of morality and 'justice' right up until it comes to something that might make Venat look like a complete psychopath.

Speaking of which, it's funny how often the game trots out this particular line of dialogue:

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence. And such a passive stance will not, I fear, take us far upon the path to progress. That you would spare these younglings the horrors of war is a decision with which I am in full agreement. Thus do I refrain from exhorting you, or any other, to return to Eorzea at my side. We must all protect that which we hold most dear in the manner of our own choosing." - Louisoix

How strange, then, that the Ancients are so heavily criticised for doing everything possible in order to protect and preserve their loved ones instead of...rolling over and allowing themselves to be wiped out and have all memory of their existence eradicated.

Worse yet, the promise to 'remember us' can't even be honoured because the game falsely presents Zodiark as being an 'ill-fated wish' instead of the very thing that ensured that Unsundered and Sundered Etheirys actually survived long enough for Venat's silly gamble to pay off.

Looking back there were so many other ways that they could have gone about Venat that fans speculated about, ranging from crazed AVALANCHE environmentalist motivations to handing mankind back the reins of history like the Venat of FFXII attempted to do.

Of all these outcomes, they really did end up going with "grown up Hermoine Granger refuses to tell anyone about the major crisis about to occur, tries to do everything her way and then destroys the planet while the story props her up as a hero."

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm not arguing in defense of Hermes and you should well know by now I detest his character as well. I'm saying from a foundational lore perspective of Etheirys, Venat's crimes begin from the moment she kept quiet about the Final Days and persist into the present with no current sign of ending. At some point, the death tally as a result of the sundering will overtake that of the Final Days if it hasn't already.

You can draw whatever lines you like. I'll even argue that morally Venat was worse than Hermes because she knew the outcome of it all and still chose to do nothing differently, which was a long game plan of hers as opposed to Hermes arguably snapping in the moment. You're also ignoring that Venat's actions were due to the fear of her people becoming The Plenty, it wasn't all just about the Song of Oblivion.

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Likewise, I'm well aware of Venat's culpability. But at the very least, Venat was operating under what she assumed would eschew the complete deliverance of total oblivion. A oblivion that Hermes put in motion by ignoring all protocols specifically in place to prevent it, and then resorting to violence and mental violation when called out on it. You can't even argue "Venat knew what would happen and did nothing" because Hermes, the expert on Dynamis, knew more than she did and deliberately erased everyone else's memories to make it happen. Yeah, Venat is horrible for choosing to play Hermes' death game, but Hermes is still the one who created the death game.

I didn't ignore anything, also. Venat's "solution" was equally meant to prevent the Plenty AND the Final Days on "permanent" scales. The two are not mutually exclusive. But the fact remains that even if we look solely at the Plenty as her motivation, it was specifically the Ancients' actions after the Final Days which brought her to that conclusion. Again, no Hermes, no Final Days, no Sundering.

In light of that, this:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd consider the Sundering to be far worse in terms of the broader consequences. Hermes and Meteion may have set everything in motion but they could have been stopped simply by Venat speaking up and sharing the knowledge that she held.

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Is, quite simply, illogical.

Having recently replayed through HW, I couldn't help but notice this:

https://i.imgur.com/Ek4jBEH.jpg

Once again, Venat more closely fits the characterization of a main villain than of a savior.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Looking back there were so many other ways that they could have gone about Venat that fans speculated about, ranging from crazed AVALANCHE environmentalist motivations to handing mankind back the reins of history like the Venat of FFXII attempted to do.

Of all these outcomes, they really did end up going with "grown up Hermoine Granger refuses to tell anyone about the major crisis about to occur, tries to do everything her way and then destroys the planet while the story props her up as a hero."

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If Venat was like Hermes on crack regarding motive even that would've been better. As much as I dislike Hermes he at least actually did something pure evil out of malice, even if that malice came out of nowhere for no good reason.

Hell, even if the sundering was an accident like I thought was a possibility I would've been happier with that.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but I personally appreciate the fact that more and more people are chiming in about feeling dissatisfied with how things played out since it makes me feel like less of an anomaly.



It's possible, though I feel whatever threat is in Pandemonium is going to be resolved by the time the raid is over and wouldn't be active during the original Final Days thanks to the closed time loop shenanigans.

The thing that bugs me the most is Azem's involvement in this mess suggesting they somehow knew all of this was going to happen already...

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Oh, no sarcasm. I just remember feeling gaslit at 6.0 release cause I didn't think EW was that good and everybody else seemed to love it. Yet this thread sure did get a lot of replies.... lol

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

High chance that the Beast creating the scream within the planet is the source of the issues appearing within pandemonium, a beast created by ancients who were affected by meteion to propagate her will.

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Please no. I'd like to have SOME mysterious left here. I don't want another thing created by the Ancients that went wrong. That's just not interesting. And they've done that already with Meteion.

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Also guessing that the last part of Pandemonium is actually going to be in present time putting whatever remains of the beast down.

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This would be actually good and make the entire storyline relevant to the present day rather than us just going into the past to deal with something that in present time would already be dealt with. I'd rather Panda Express be about learning what the thing is, then yeah finding it's still alive in the present and on the verge of arising and wreacking havoc and so now that we know what it is we can go back to present day and stop it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence"

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The writers really, REALLY seem to like this line for some reason.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

The writers really, REALLY seem to like this line for some reason.

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Because it's Louisoix catchline?

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Because it's Louisoix catchline?

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True. I just don't think it's as great of a line as the writers seem to and think they overuse it. But that's probably just me.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

True. I just don't think it's as great of a line as the writers seem to and think they overuse it. But that's probably just me.

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Wouldn’t be the first poorly aged line. Let’s not forget Dragonsong which is confirmed to be Hydaelyn’s perspective. “Tell me why break dust. Why turn the past dust?”

Meanwhile….she breaks everyone’s trust and literally turned the past to dust and tried to keep it a secret. It’s just satire at this point it has to be. Or the writers are just this horrible.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Oh, no sarcasm. I just remember feeling gaslit at 6.0 release cause I didn't think EW was that good and everybody else seemed to love it. Yet this thread sure did get a lot of replies.... lol

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I think the honeymoon phase is beginning to wear off now, even on sites which aren't usually particularly critical (or to be more accurate, are usually gushing with praise.)

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I think the honeymoon phase is beginning to wear off now, even on sites which aren't usually particularly critical (or to be more accurate, are usually gushing with praise.)

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I think EW is one of those stories that the longer you think about it the more it falls apart.

Like the exact opposite of Fridge Brilliance, whatever that's called.

I'm thinking there are a lot of people like myself out there who initially loved Endwalker, took everything in at face value (which is what Yoshi wanted us to do), then started to go back and look at certain aspects of the story. I've even seen people start to creep up on Reddit with criticisms. As Yukiko said, the more you think about Endwalker's story, the more it falls apart and I don't appreciate Yoshida telling us we're thinking about it too much.

That whole thing bout thinking bout it too much always annoys me, this isn't looney tunes where the point is the logic takes a break for comedy.

This is a game were in the past it wants us to think about complex or semi-complex morel dilemma's or concepts now wants us not to? that is legitimately hackish writing

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Same thoughts but with Venat. Why do Hermes and Venat get to be on the finale painting, but Elidibus/Zodiark are nowhere to be seen. Really baffling when you remember they’re the only reason we’re even alive to this day.

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Because everyone is in their Ancient forms, not modern Ascian/primal forms?

Including Elidibus requires either a mismatching "not original self" version or his previously unseen form as Themis. Either would be jarring for that moment.

If we had seen him in the course of the MSQ, he would almost certainly be there. But in the existing layout of the narrative, it is difficult.

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

That whole thing bout thinking bout it too much always annoys me, this isn't looney tunes where the point is the logic takes a break for comedy.

This is a game were in the past it wants us to think about complex or semi-complex morel dilemma's or concepts now wants us not to? that is legitimately hackish writing

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Not only that, but it's a response someone ignorant of fantasy fandom would give. Fans love deep diving lore and he should know this. Why even bother crafting an intricate story if it's only for surface level enjoyment? Why would they even need Oda if that's the case?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Not only that, but it's a response someone ignorant of fantasy fandom would give. Fans love deep diving lore and he should know this. Why even bother crafting an intricate story if it's only for surface level enjoyment? Why would they even need Oda if that's the case?

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It's particularly tone deaf when he is on record as having praised people for doing it in the past. It isn't something he is unaware of. I rather suspect it was a way of showing his irritation because the pretty character he spent a month getting 'just right' in a cutscene was criticised.

He'd do well to look at World of Warcraft and how the constant promotion of Sylvanas despite her incredibly divisive actions backfired and contributed to the game bleeding players over time.

It should also be pretty obvious that not everybody wants the game to focus on the Scions and little else. Why he keeps promoting them to such an obnoxious degree is beyond me. It really feels as if he's mad that players dared to find something else more refreshing and interesting.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Because everyone is in their Ancient forms, not modern Ascian/primal forms?

Including Elidibus requires either a mismatching "not original self" version or his previously unseen form as Themis. Either would be jarring for that moment.

If we had seen him in the course of the MSQ, he would almost certainly be there. But in the existing layout of the narrative, it is difficult.

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Okay then how about Zodiark? Or just have Elidibus there as his masked self. Or honestly they could have just put his Themis self there seeing as we're introduced to him 2 minutes later. If it was only this i would give it a pass, but now in the recent flow music video and official art, he is missing from there as well. How funny is it Venat,Emet,Hythlo etc get to be on there....but Elidibus does not. I think theres some bias showing....

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

I think EW is one of those stories that the longer you think about it the more it falls apart.

Like the exact opposite of Fridge Brilliance, whatever that's called.

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Not only that, but the sheer hypocrisy just retroactively ruined a lot of the story for me -- and future writing, which will just be me rolling my eyes. It's like that one meme with the kid at the surface of the water looking worried while far below the depths is a skeleton long drowned. That's the Sundered vs the Ancients treatment to me.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If we had seen him in the course of the MSQ, he would almost certainly be there. But in the existing layout of the narrative, it is difficult.

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Don't remind me how we only had him in for 5 minutes in his little snuggie ghost man form as he kills himself to send us back to the past. brb hiding the pain... though honestly, I think it wouldn't have been too odd to feature him and his OG short self, just with the hood/mask on and looking away/down at some of the Convocation stones in his hand.

On further thought, the even simpler answer as to why Elidibus isn't in the picture is that it isn't trying to be "important Ancients", it's just all the friends we made in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On further thought, the even simpler answer as to why Elidibus isn't in the picture is that it isn't trying to be "important Ancients", it's just all the friends we made in Elpis.

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We're friends with Hermes after the sick things he does? That man is a monster

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Originally Posted by Iscah

On further thought, the even simpler answer as to why Elidibus isn't in the picture is that it isn't trying to be "important Ancients", it's just all the friends we made in Elpis.

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How are we friends with Hermes tho lmao....

I suspect that they didn't much thought into it, though I do find it interesting to see which characters the game chooses to promote across social media as that in itself feeds into biases.

I've seen very little official media devoted to Garlemald despite its numerous fans and the simple fact that it, too, is meant to drawing to a close in terms of relevancy in the story moving forward.

Isn't Yoshi-P the one who forgot to include Krile in the promo art? If so, then wouldn't he also be responsible for who to include in the post-credit art? We saw from the Famitsu interview that he was 'surprised' people didn't take to Hermes the way they did to Emet. -_-

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Isn't Yoshi-P the one who forgot to include Krile in the promo art? If so, then wouldn't he also be responsible for who to include in the post-credit art? We saw from the Famitsu interview that he was 'surprised' people didn't take to Hermes the way they did to Emet. -_-

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I am surprised they expected us to take to Hermes, they didn't really put much effort into making him actually that relatable or that engaging

Hermes and Venat felt like little more than a desperate attempt to try and undo everything that Shadowbringers brought to the table in terms of nuance. I really don't understand what was so difficult about letting the Ancients, through no fault of their own, be subjected to a horrific tragedy. The weird attempts to try and gaslight, misdirect and justify their genocide is outright strange.

I'm also not sure how it is meant to be an uplifting story. There's a lot of things going on in the real world lately and no shortage of unhinged individuals who genuinely and gleefully believe that if someone thinks or holds a different opinion to themselves then they should be excluded from society at best and murdered at worst. With that in mind, portraying a figure who adopted such a mentality as a 'saviour' is pretty tone deaf and bizarre.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I am surprised they expected us to take to Hermes, they didn't really put much effort into making him actually that relatable or that engaging

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I think it was only Comically-Out-Of-Touch Yoshida who expected us to find Hermes appealing and sympathetic. Even Ishikawa, who adores him, figured that 80% of the fanbase would hate him. And rightly so.

Every so often I dream of a paradisiacal alternate reality in which the game boasted a 15 year storyline instead of 11 years...

1.0 through HW go on as they do now, 2010-2017 seven years of story. From 4.0 onward, I would personally change a lot. My full thoughts are spoiler marked to save everyone from the Great Wall of Text. Read if you want to know all of my rant, otherwise I make my point well enough with my abbreviated thoughts.

Abbreviated thoughts:
4.0 is solely Ala Mhigo, 5.0 is Doma, both get their own cities and their stories serve their purposes to establish foundations of what exactly the calamities/rejoinings were and exactly what the empire is.
Ghimlyt Dark serves as the gateway to 6.0, which is Garlemald. We get zones for Ghimlyt, Nhalmasque, an extra for Garlemald (split between the outer lands and the inner city, which takes up the entirety of a zone rather than being localized to a city), and an extra for Thavnair with Radz being the hub city, end hub somewhere in Garlemald. After helping put an end to their imperialist government by aiding internal resistance and starting a civil war, we defeat Elidibus (but don't worry he'll be back and get a proper conclusion to his story) which deactivates Zodiark and restarts the Final Days. Throw in as many FF7 references as possible.
7.0 we get SHB, level caps at 100 once and for all and the story is quite similar, with key differences being the final bosses of 7.0 (Eden) and 7.3 (Hades), as well as the lore that drops being heavier and the context being more stressful due to what's happening on the source.
8.0, at our "max power" of level 100, we put that strength to the test against the embodiment of despair, after saving the unsundered world from the final days and creating a new timeline. Elidibus returns to man Zodiark to aid us in the fight, and Hydaelyn is the final trial after our victory because we want to defeat her for her crime of sundering the world and inflicting suffering upon billions of people, as well as freeing ourselves from her tempering. Elidibus passes on, having completed his duty of saving the world and killing the one who destroyed it.
8.1 and beyond, adventure time woo lets get it!

Extended thoughts:

In 4.0 the devs break the established precedent of 2.0 and 3.0 by having the hub city only be fully accessible at the end of the story and instead putting the vendors temporarily in Rhalgr's Reach (even though no one would miss them let's be real. like let's be really real no one uses the vendors in major cities.). That city is, of course, Ala Mhigo proper. In fact, the whole expansion is solely Ala Mhigo focused. Instead of the 3 far east zones, we get an opportunity to throw in just a few more Eorzea zones, such as the home of the warriors in Abalathia's Spine, or maybe West Shroud or Coerthas Eastern. Exploring calamity-bombed zones would be a good way to add in some foundation to start talking about what the calamities actually are.

In 5.0, you guessed it, Doma's time to shine. Same case, city not accessible until the end. Kugane becomes the end hub. Yanxia gets 2 or 3 zones (Fanged Crescent, anyone?), with the opportunity to add in the Ryakgyr Peninsula, The Nhaama, and/or the Dalvalan Grath ("Why not Nagxia?" save that for a future expansion). The patch quests could actually continue quite similarly, with Tsukuyomi, The Burn, and Ghimlyt Dark. This time, though, instead of jebaiting us with the soulsnatching, Ghimlyt Dark functions as it SHOULD in that it acts as the gateway to the next expansion the way Baelsar's Wall did before Gyr Abania; the first zone of 6.0 is Ghimlyt.

In 6.0 we go to Garlemald and put an end to their reign of terror once and for all. Approach Ilsabard by traveling over land through Ghimlyt, but before we can make it through the Magna Glacies, we find that there's too much military presence between Ilsabard and Aldenard, so we then reroute and rendezvous at the hub city of the expansion; Radz-at-Han! We gain access to the two zones of Thavnair, north and south, and set up base in Radz as it's a neutral territory from which we head north to Garlemald through an airship disguised as a merchant ship. Before we get there we pass through Nhalmasque, a region long annexed by Garlemald that had been thoroughly ravaged. A great way to put the cruelty of the empire on full display. The end hub could then be dug out of part of the city proper, where we aid internal resistance. 6.0 ending at the very beginning of civil war after we kill Anima (and therefore Varis) would be pretty raw, I'll be honest, but that probably wouldn't be very realistic. I think a Garlemald expansion would be the perfect time to pull out the FF7 references, Midgar and Sephiroth's theme and all that fancy stuff.
This is a scorching hot nuclear take, but I think we should fight and "kill" Elidibus in the patch quests, specifically 6.3 to act as the "finale" of the Garlemald arc since the empire was created by the Ascians, "killing" the heart of their god, thus deactivating him and his protection, and restarting the doomsday clock without realizing it would be pretty raw. He'll be back though, I know better than to let such a major figure fade out so easily.

With Zodiark's aetherial barriers now fading, Exarch now finds it easier to start soulsnatching us; 7.0 is when we get Shadowbringers. This time, instead of rushing to save the first and return back to the source to resume holding off the empire just to find out they're conveniently destroying themselves so we don't have to, we have to race against the clock to start preventing the Final Days again. Otherwise, SHB can go on virtually the same as it did, only this time the lore it drops is a lot heavier because we had more time to build up previous knowledge. For example, we would probably already know that HydZod are primals. Going to Amaurot could trigger echo memories of the Final Days and give us a glimpse at the summoning of Zodiark and Venat formulating her plan. This also gives us the potential to have what the writers initially intended, which is Eden being the final boss. Sure, it might be Meteion-tier disappointment, but we could at least know Hades is yet to be defeated (and will be in 7.3). After the first is saved from light extinction, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire as we head back to the source and cracks are starting to form, blasphemies emerging. It's small at first, but worrying enough to know that we have to get a move on.

Welcome to 8.0, the first expansion in which the level cap is not boosted past 100 (or 99 if we want to go real JRPG) to represent that after all of our journeys we've maxed out our power. Now we're tasked to put it to the ultimate test as we fight against despair itself threatening to end all existence (though I would really prefer if it were localized to our galaxy, and we could take comfort in knowing that millions of lightyears out there are planets bursting with life, I just find that much better than something that insinuates an inane "humans r superior" message).

From then on it's all changes I've already talked about these past few months; Sharlayan guards knowledge about all of the past calamities and the sundering, which was given to them by Venat who guided Nyunkrepf as her prophet, we need this knowledge to fully know what we're up against. Elidibus takes a role in the story as a helper because PLOT TWIST we didn't actually kill him and we just deactivated Zodiark. He guides us to unsundered Etheirys where we get multiple zones, and carry out a storyline about helping them prevent the Final Days in their time thus creating an alternate timeline that we can then access through the engineered Crystal Tower's spacetime travel. The second mid-story trial can be Meteion, in which we defeat her before she escapes to become a galactical terrorist. Ultima Thule would be... cooler? Idk, the design of the zone just didn't do it for me. If it was placed in the center of the galaxy in front of a supermassive black hole I would absolutely lose my mind. Also, this is kinda minor but I would scrap Labyrinthos entirely and instead move outside Sharlayan to the Old World islands for the first zone of the expansion. Damn Daniel himself should be the first mid-story trial, as we try to stop him from hopping into Zodiark. After we return from saving the unsundered world, we have Elidibus hop back into Zodiark like a battery starting him up again. Zodiark finally speaks to us for the first time, and offers us his aid in the fight against the despair threatening our galaxy.

After the final dungeon, Hydaelyn and Zodiark join together and, with our aid in a scene that resembles the scene at the end of Praetorium when we "kill" Lahabrea, we unite for a single strike against the eldritch entity that finally ends it. Zodiark and Elidibus, having exhausted all of their aether, finally pass once and for all, and can die somewhat happily knowing that their world is saved in another timeline and they managed to finally put an end to the threat that started the destruction of their star in this timeline. Or perhaps Elidibus passes on after we challenge Hydaelyn and defeat her for the crimes of sundering the world and to free us all from her tempering, thus serving as the final trial of 8.0. Having lived to see her destruction, he decides retribution was somewhat properly enacted and he can finally rest. Now that the world is free of her thrall, free to determine their own future, things are Real Damn Good in the world, both here and in the alternate timeline. The end, but wait there's still more adventures to be had, blah blah blah, onto a bright future of gimmicky expansions we go!

If everything were to happen like this, the story would last from 2010 to 2025, be inherently entwined into an overarching plot, and conclude with no stone unturned. I know that sounds like a stupidly long wait but the thing is I don't care. In fact, having it last that long with everything being clear and consistent, plotlines being wrapped up satisfactorily and as few holes as possible in the story seems much more appealing to me than trying to close it off suddenly and move on. It would also be an INSANE accomplishment, to say an MMO of all things had a 15 year single player-level storyline that was fully consistent. But, something like that was doomed to never happen ever since SB's conception. Still, it's nice to imagine what could've been. Maybe I should learn to time travel and Graha this timeline into existence.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

We're friends with Hermes after the sick things he does? That man is a monster

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How are we friends with Hermes tho lmao....

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I mean, we were friends with him at the time, before it all fell apart at Ktisis. We connected. So it feels to me that everything we see him go through after that is watching a friend go off the rails and hoping he can be brought back to his senses.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I mean, we were friends with him at the time, before it all fell apart at Ktisis. We connected. So it feels to me that everything we see him go through after that is watching a friend go off the rails and hoping he can be brought back to his senses.

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Me after some guy I talked to a few times one day suddenly becomes a mass murderer: oh no, my bestie, this isn’t you, please come to your senses!

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I mean, we were friends with him at the time, before it all fell apart at Ktisis. We connected. So it feels to me that everything we see him go through after that is watching a friend go off the rails and hoping he can be brought back to his senses.

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I can't say I felt I really connected with that closely, I certainly don't think he was written in away espically with how abusive his relationship with Meition is. Also is betrayal of us rather overrights any feel of comrade with him

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I think the honeymoon phase is beginning to wear off now, even on sites which aren't usually particularly critical (or to be more accurate, are usually gushing with praise.)

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The only place I see this kind of negativity is here on the forums and it's always the same people ( including in this thread ) who are essentially always negative about everything about the game.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I'm thinking there are a lot of people like myself out there who initially loved Endwalker, took everything in at face value (which is what Yoshi wanted us to do), then started to go back and look at certain aspects of the story. I've even seen people start to creep up on Reddit with criticisms. As Yukiko said, the more you think about Endwalker's story, the more it falls apart and I don't appreciate Yoshida telling us we're thinking about it too much.

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I dunno the exact context of what he said and how.
But I think there is such a thing as thinking too much about it, if people were as hypercritical about any other game, movie or show as they are about this it'd all fall apart too.
Especially since some people for some bizarre reason are already set on hating basically anything the devs do and 99% of their presence on the forum is just that, if you set your mind to hating something then it's very easy to find reasons to do it.
I also don't think that a character like Hermes can be a likeable or sympathetic character if you hyperfocus on what he did and that's the only thing you really think about.
Which is kinda weird too considering everything Emet did too and yet people have no issues appreciating his character, and we're talking about a guy who ran around genociding others.

Again I dunno what exactly he meant with that, but I don't think it's really about people just '' thinking about it '' it's about how they do it and the intent behind it.
If you go into something with the intent to find problems you're going to find it.

I have this problem too with a lot of media, especially shows and games that proclaim to be '' realistic '' if they do that then I am just going to become EXTREMELY nitpicky and it becomes almost impossible for me to enjoy it.

Edit: On the note of Emet too, it should be noted that he did it for a VERY long time.
Hermes didn't have the same amount of time to think about what he was doing, he made a decision in the moment based on what he was currently feeling.
Emet had plenty of time over the years to consider it and he still kept going with it.
Even if Emet had a more understandable motive he wasn't acting impulsively like Hermes was.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I can't say I felt I really connected with that closely, I certainly don't think he was written in away espically with how abusive his relationship with Meition is. Also is betrayal of us rather overrights any feel of comrade with him

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Tbh to some extent it doesn't matter what you personally feel, because our characters are not actually us.
We don't have any real choice in our characters personality and what they think and feel ( outside of very small details ), what matters is what our characters feel which is something the writers control.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Me after some guy I talked to a few times one day suddenly becomes a mass murderer: oh no, my bestie, this isn’t you, please come to your senses!

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It's not just us it's everyone else too, I also think that our '' past '' as Azem plays a role too in how we feel even if on a subconscious level.
Sorta like how Hythlodaeus almost felt like we were Azem and opened up more to us.

Things don't need to be so much as "realistic" as they need to simply be logical. Endwalker took turns that veered away from that. We can logically sympathize with Emet easier than we can with Hermes for a number of reasons, one of them being that he was given the time and setup he needed to make sense of his position rather than just shoving his emotions down our throat by force in a span of a few hours with Hermes in Elpis.