Seriously 3-5 minute repop on NMs?

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

Tougher Notorious Monsters are very welcome. Also it's great if an item is rarer than more common. People say that everyone is going to have it at some point because it's an MMO. People played FFXI for years and never got dalmatica and that was an NM drop. When you saw dalmatica it was impressive. There were a lot of things like that in FFXI. There were also a lot of alternatives so that people who didn't have as much time could get stuff as well. It just made things more varied.

But still I don't think the issue with notorious monsters is how tough or challenging it is, or how rare it's item is. I really feel it's the repop. When an NM that has a rare pop time due to something like lottery spawn and maybe an hour respawn and you see it, it makes your heart jump. The feeling made fighting leaping lizzy exciting even though it takes five hits to kill. I was trying to get a Thalassion Targe and all I did was kill Slippery Sykes twenty times (not exaggerating). The fight was incredibly boring and still took much longer than an hour to finally get my drop.

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You did a great job here portraying the feelings of a fellow nm hunter about those sort of NM's. And you did so with out being negative or demeaning towards other peoples beliefs. 2 thumbs up and 5 stars <3. I wish more people like you were on these forums!

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Uh-huh. If it can be avoided it should be avoided.



Yes, and part of that promotion is to make up valid reasons for my preferences to be picked instead of yours. And if at this point all you can come up with is "my preferences are not any worse than yours" without backing it up in any way, I think everyone has seen enough regarding which preference is the superior preference. Yes, opinions are not created equal, and if you can't think up anything convincing to promote your preference, you have lost.

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I have given my reasons over and over, which you are wilfully ignoring. Going out of your way to be ignorant isn't a 'win'.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

That isn't what you said. You said I was suggesting reducing accessibility for other paying customers. It would be the same for everyone.

Like I said, everyone would have the same chance to claim it. No one is being excluded here.

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You forget a little big detail. When you lower general accessibility, the accessibility of the content to other paying customers that can't camp a mob for a very long period of time and don't have the chance to be there during the less camped hours is reduced *exponentially*

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I have given my reasons over and over, which you are wilfully ignoring. Going out of your way to be ignorant isn't a 'win'.

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disagreeing != ignoring.
I heard your reasons, and they're a big oversimplification of the problem.

Why do you guys keep responding to Visch and his troll goons?

Everyone has already made the same point over the course of 44 pages.

There are 2 groups it seems.

Guys like Visch who wants items to be harder to get via time

Guys like me who want items to be harder to get via difficult fight

The devs have plans for us, so let this thread die and let the ffxi elitists (you know who you are) whine and complain as much as they want. They won't listen to your reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

I have given my reasons over and over, which you are wilfully ignoring. Going out of your way to be ignorant isn't a 'win'.

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I am ignoring nothing. State what I have ignored or stop pretending.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

The devs have plans for us

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Thankfully, as the rep stated, their plans involve challenge, not timesinks.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You forget a little big detail. When you lower general accessibility, the accessibility of the content to other paying customers that can't camp a mob for a very long period of time and don't have the chance to be there during the less camped hours is reduced *exponentially*

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Hence shorter windows. People who play more are always going to have an advantage of some sort. It's unavoidable.

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disagreeing != ignoring.

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Did you even read the exchange? He is being ignorant by pretending that I haven't argued my point, not because he disagrees with me. You disagree with me and I don't think you are ignorant. I have already had one person who disagrees concede that they understand my point, even if they don't agree.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I am ignoring nothing. State what I have ignored or stop pretending.

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Read the thread. I have stated my points over and over. I'm not going to continually repeat myself in order to appease someone who appears entirely incapable of having a civil discussion.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Hence shorter windows. People who play more are always going to have an advantage of some sort. It's unavoidable.

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A shorter (but not short enough) window does nothing else than create overcamping.

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Did you even read the exchange? He is being ignorant by pretending that I haven't argued my point, not because he disagrees with me. You disagree with me and I don't think you are ignorant. I have already had one person who disagrees concede that they understand my point, even if they don't agree.

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I read it. I don't think he's going out of his way to be ignorant, as you stated.
Maybe overly aggressive, but that's a whole different pair of sleeves.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Read the thread. I have stated my points over and over. I'm not going to continually repeat myself in order to appease someone who appears entirely incapable of having a civil discussion.

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I have proved everything you have said wrong or flawed. At this point you have no other choice but to give up or make up crap like this to avoid actually having a debate with me you know you are going to lose (or already lost).

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I read it. I don't think he's going out of his way to be ignorant, as you stated.

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Fortunately I am sure his statement involves no bias that may affect his judgment.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

A shorter (but not short enough) window does nothing else than create overcamping.

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You say 'overcamping', while I say 'creates competition'. I don't want to see an NM pop and be utterly indifferent to its presence.

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I read it. I don't think he's going out of his way to be ignorant, as you stated.

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He's pretending that I haven't provided an argument for my points. I call that ignorance, particularly when someone who agrees with him has already stated that they understand the view I'm promoting.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I have proved everything you have said wrong or flawed. At this point you have no other choice but to give up or make up crap like this to avoid actually having a debate with me you know you are going to lose (or already lost).

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Yep, you have too much game for me. Your debating skills make Christopher Hitchens look like Bill O'Reilly.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

He's pretending that I haven't provided an argument for my points. I call that ignorance, particularly when someone who agrees with him has already stated that they understand the view I'm promoting.

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You did, then you resorted to "you cant disprove my personal preferences qq" at which point it was pretty clear that you had nothing of value to say. Now you keep trying to squirm your way out but the facts don't change. You haven't given any arguments since you resorted to the "personal opinion" talk. That's all we need to know at this point to see where you are standing. If you have something else to say, say it. Otherwise its simply your personal opinion that is a bad one at that.

I think Abriael is also making very valid points. He doesn't agree with you and he points out why. You don't agree with him and you point out why. There is no reason to attack him for not agreeing with your viewpoint. The discussion if I read right is 3-5 minute nm pops, seriously?.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

You did, then you resorted to "you cant disprove my personal preferences qq" at which point it was pretty clear that you had nothing of value to say. Now you keep trying to squirm your way out but the facts don't change. You haven't given any arguments since you resorted to the "personal opinion" talk. That's all we need to know at this point to see where you are standing. If you have something else to say, say it. Otherwise its simply your personal opinion that is a bad one at that.

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Of course you cannot disprove my personal preferences. That is the whole point. It's a bit like me telling you that it is wrong to enjoy basketball. Use some common sense.

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Originally Posted by Gracious

I think Abriael is also making very valid points. He doesn't agree with you and he points out why. You don't agree with him and you point out why. There is no reason to attack him for not agreeing with your viewpoint. The discussion if I read right is 3-5 minute nm pops, seriously?.

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Where did I attack Abriael? He has been nothing but civil, so I have no problem with his approach to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

You say 'overcamping', while I say 'creates competition'. I don't want to see an NM pop and be utterly indifferent to its presence.

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Overcamping is simply the (undeniable) definition of having too many people camping the same spot. FFXI shown that quite well even on the NMs with the shorter spawn rates. It has the (again, undeniable) effect of drastically reducing the chance to enjoy content especially for those that can't afford camping for hours upon hours and have a less lightning fast connection/lack of latency.

As for the kind of competition it creates, it's one of the most damaging kinds for the quality of a community, as people effectively start to see competitors in a camp as "the enemy", due to the frustration and boredom created by having to wait.

On the other hand, as the effect of the current systems clearly shown in game, with people teaming up on friendly terms even between strangers to share spawns and loot, short timers are definitely conductive to a friendly and tightly knit community even outside of one's usual circle of friends and linkshell.

Which in a MMORPG it's obviously the most advisable option.

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He's pretending that I haven't provided an argument for my points. I call that ignorance, particularly when someone who agrees with him has already stated that they understand the view I'm promoting.

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You have provided nothing concrete, I'm afraid. You stated opinions, that are hardly valid arguments IMHO.
I respect them, but I think they are damaging to the quality of the community and to most people's enjoyment of the game.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Read the thread. I have stated my points over and over. I'm not going to continually repeat myself in order to appease someone who appears entirely incapable of having a civil discussion.

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What I'm getting from your posts is that you want the thrill of the hunt back, not knowing exactly when the NM will appear and exactly where it will be. You enjoy the thrill you get when you snag the monster you are going for after hours of painstakingly camping it. You find the new nm's to be bleh since they are just there. You feel it cheapens the value of a nm is if it's constantly there.

On the other side of the fence are the players who do not like to camp. They find it boring, and get more enjoyment from the fight itself over the wait. They do not feel that the camping itself is part of the challenge and get no thrill whatsoever from sitting around camping and claiming. They feel the nm is still the nm regardless of how often he spawns. It's still the same strength regardless of if it appears once a day or once every 5 mins.

You made your point very clear imo. You enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Personally I like Abriael's idea he made in another thread of having an actual hunt. It's hard to address an issue such as this b/c you can either please the majority, or you can try to come to a middleground. Generally when you make a truely fair compromise, both sides are unhappy at the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

You say 'overcamping', while I say 'creates competition'. I don't want to see an NM pop and be utterly indifferent to its presence.



He's pretending that I haven't provided an argument for my points. I call that ignorance, particularly when someone who agrees with him has already stated that they understand the view I'm promoting.

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This is what I mean when I refer to attacking him personally. You don't know he is pretending anything. Also, you imply he is also ignorant when he clearly shows valid points.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Overcamping is simply the (undeniable) definition of having too many people camping the same spot. FFXI shown that quite well even on the NMs with the shorter spawn rates. It has the (again, undeniable) effect of drastically reducing the chance to enjoy content especially for those that can't afford camping for hours upon hours and have a less lightning fast connection/lack of latency.

As for the kind of competition it creates, it's one of the most damaging kinds for the quality of a community, as people effectively start to see competitors in a camp as "the enemy", due to the frustration and boredom created by having to wait.

On the other hand, as the effect of the current systems clearly shown in game, with people teaming up on friendly terms even between strangers to share spawns and loot, short timers are definitely conductive to a friendly and tightly knit community even outside of one's usual circle of friends and linkshell.

Which in a MMORPG it's obviously the most advisable option.



You have proven nothing, I'm afraid. You stated opinions, that are hardly "evidence".
I respect them, but I think they are damaging to the quality of the community and to many people's enjoyment of the game.

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Of course I haven't proven anything. That was never my aim because taste is entirely subjective.

Indulge me for a second. What is your favourite sport?

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Of course I haven't proven anything. That was never my aim because taste is entirely subjective.

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What's good for a game's community isn't subjective.

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Indulge me for a second. What is your favourite sport?

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A few martial arts (and I already know where you're going, just so you know :p)

ITT:

Youre ignorant!

No you're ignorant!

Yea, well my daddy is stronger than your daddy!

I'm rubber, you're glue, anything you say will....

Some of you guys sound so pathetic aren't you guys embarrassed to act like this over a video game? seriously relax, go out, sun is up its nice out, get a tan, go for a run, breathe some air and wait 'til the next update when everyone will start complaining about the next best thing.

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Originally Posted by Gracious

This is what I mean when I refer to attacking him personally. You don't know he is pretending anything. Also, you imply he is also ignorant when he clearly shows valid points.

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His points are valid for those who share his view.

And if he continually states that I haven't argued my points, he is being ignorant. Allow me to quote Sorel, who disagrees with me. After I explained my argument, she replied:

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I understand your argument better now. Thank you.

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All it takes to understand someone's view is to have an open mind. You needn't agree, but pretending that I haven't argued my points is ignorant. And I'm using the word in the traditional sense.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

What's good for a game's community isn't subjective.

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Yes, it is. You don't know what is best for the community. The very fact that we are arguing over what is best is proof that it is subjective.

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A few martial arts (and I already know where you're going, just so you know :p)

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Good man. I'm an MMA fan too.

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this, but I'll continue regardless. My favourite sport is tennis. Prove why your favourite sport is better than mine.

Can I get a tl:dr from you guys?

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Yes, it is. You don't know what is best for the community. The very fact that we are arguing over what is best is proof that it is subjective.

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No, it's proof that i'm arguing against mechanics that have been proven by previous games to be bad for the community, and the opposite of which have been proven by this game to be good.
The reason I'm arguing is simply because mechanics conductive to seeing other gamers as an "ENEMY" need to be kept out of this game.

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Good man. I'm an MMA fan too.
I'm sure you know where I'm going with this, but I'll continue regardless. My favourite sport is tennis. Prove why your favourite sport is better than mine.

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I don't need to. This is not a sport. This is a game (thankfully, since when extreme competition turns a game into a sport, unpleasant things happen), and a game with a "massive" community at that. Apples to oranges.

A strong community is a massively important aspect for a MMORPG (even more so for a MMORPG that's lacking in content). I already proved how short timer spawns are better for the community than long timer ones. The facts are under everyone's eyes.

I was with my linkshell and killing some NMs last night. It's 2nd or 3rd time we've gone out together and done something. I enjoyed it. The low respawn times allowed us to not have to sit around doing nothing, twiddling our thumbs.

Unlike than the respawn rate, I noticed that these NMs are a bit difficult to swallow without some level 48-50's in the party for dropped items that are for rank 30~ish players. I tried to solo one and it took me down super fast on a rank 30. ^_^ Maybe I just don't have the right class to solo a mob with yet.

I have a new bow though, so I'm very happy with how things turned out! I hope we can have another NM hunting event tonight.

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Originally Posted by PeppinoTuna

Unlike than the respawn rate, I noticed that these NMs are a bit difficult to swallow without some level 48-50's in the party for dropped items that are for rank 30~ish players. I tried to solo one and it took me down super fast on a rank 30. ^_^

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They're very doable at the level of the items they drop, if you are in a decently sized group. I don't think they're supposed to be solo-able, at least not at their level.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No, it's proof that i'm arguing against mechanics that have been proven by previous games to be bad for the community, and the opposite of which have been proven by this game to be good.
The reason I'm arguing is simply because mechanics conductive to seeing other gamers as an "ENEMY" need to be kept out of this game.

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Why? You haven't explained why competition is bad. I have explained why I feel that it is good. That doesn't make me right, but it certainly doesn't make me wrong.

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I don't need to. This is not a sport. This is a game (thankfully, since when extreme competition turns a game into a sport, unpleasant things happen), and a game with a "massive" community at that. Apples to oranges.

A strong community is a massively important aspect for a MMORPG (even more so for a MMORPG that's poor in content). I already proved how short timer spawns are better for the community than long timer ones. The facts are under everyone's eyes.

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It works the same way. You cannot prove that shorter repops are better any more than I can prove that longer repops are better. It is completely subjective. I like one thing and you like something else. How can you possibly tell me that what I like is wrong? Think about that for a second.

And no, you didn't prove anything. You put forward an argument, which is not a proof of any sort. What you did was argue for why you like things a certain why. You are perfectly entitled to do that, but let's not confuse facts and opinions.

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Originally Posted by Lyndis

But still I don't think the issue with notorious monsters is how tough or challenging it is, or how rare it's item is. I really feel it's the repop. When an NM that has a rare pop time due to something like lottery spawn and maybe an hour respawn and you see it, it makes your heart jump. The feeling made fighting leaping lizzy exciting even though it takes five hits to kill. I was trying to get a Thalassion Targe and all I did was kill Slippery Sykes twenty times (not exaggerating). The fight was incredibly boring and still took much longer than an hour to finally get my drop.

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This is very true, I killed that damned hog about 30 times to get my belt, and it was still boring despite the fighting being somewhat hard and took a little while. I was even camping against others yet it was not exhillirating or fun because if you miss the claim you can just get it again in like 2 minutes! xD

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Why? You haven't explained why competition is bad. I have explained why I feel that it is good. That doesn't make me right, but it certainly doesn't make me wrong.

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Facts prove you wrong.
In FFXI with longer respawn times people that abitually hunted NMs hated each other, continuously accused each other of cheating or botting, and generally created an horrible atmosphere.
In FFXIV with the shorter respawn times, complete strangers team up, chat amicably and make new friends, sharing loot and fun.

It's absolutely obvious which option is better for the community. I shouldn't even need to explain it.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Facts prove you wrong.
In FFXI with longer respawn times people that abitually hunted NMs hated each other, continuously accused each other of cheating or botting, and generally created an horrible atmosphere.

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That is an atmosphere of competition, which some people enjoy. Stating that is was a horrible atmosphere does not make it true. You are stating an opinion.

It's a bit like saying you wished everyone in the world agreed on everything. Great in theory, but boring in reality.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

That is an atmosphere of competitio

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No, it's an atmosphere of extremised and exacerbated competition due to boredom and frustration.

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which some people enjoy.

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You may personally enjoy it as much as you want, but it's factually and undeniably not conductive to a strong and close knit community, which is a crucial asset to a MMORPG.
Cooperative play is factually and undeniably conductive to a strong and close knit community.

It's that simple.

(this without even mentioning that the whole concept behind the Final Fantasy franchise is unity and cooperation)

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Originally Posted by Clydey

That is an atmosphere of competition, which some people enjoy. Stating that is was a horrible atmosphere does not make it true. You are stating an opinion.

It's a bit like saying you wished everyone in the world agreed on everything. Great in theory, but boring in reality.

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That maybe true, but not everyone can slave themselves. People got lives to live, jobs and friends. With that in mind I understand completely why the devs went this way, and I agree with them.

I hated camping, even my LS gave up on it when botting was on the rise in FFXI. You got to understand some people camp just to kill it. Ixion, King Behemoth etc. Anything that is worth selling and making money, and monopolizing. It was disgusting.

I'm probably the biggest fan of debate out there. But at a certain point the argument goes "meta-" and starts being about arguing about the argument or the arguers, instead of about the subject. Usually it happens in PvE vs. PvP threads. I'm surprised that NM respawn times are such a polarizing issue ... especially considering that it is quite possibly the easiest thing for SE to adjust in the entire game.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Unfortunately, I fear it won't be, because he talked about "strenght", not "waiting". Some don't want a challenge. They want to wait.

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Amen brother. I just converted.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

Can't people express their views without the 'opposition' demeaning them? You are completely misrepresenting the issue and you know you are.

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No way he's right, people are asking for masochism. They need an excuse to feel better than other people because of all the hard work they put in.. to a videogame.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. I didn't. I obviously talked about "Some", and it's rather obvious that some people around here are quite clearly giving the timesink aspect of old-style nm hunting a higher priority than any kind of challenge.

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Amen, amen. Good service today.

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Originally Posted by Kilta_Firelotus

that is going to end up happening anyway.... >.>? don't make me log in ffxi and count how many ppl have bounding boots or empress hairpin or kirin osode, kirons pole or belck belt etc. I'm bored enough and ebd up doing it XD

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That's exactly right.. O-Hat was a hard to get item.. didn't matter.. O-Hat runs. Gear up and let's head out we're going to spend the next week or two getting everyone O-Hats, cause we're hardcore. What difference would it have made to its rarity if it dropped off a lvl 1 sheep? Everyone would have one anyway.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You may personally enjoy it as much as you want, but it's factually and undeniably not conductive to a strong and close knit community, which is a crucial asset to a MMORPG.
Cooperative play is factually and undeniably conductive to a strong and close knit community.

It's that simple.

(this without even mentioning that the whole concept behind the Final Fantasy franchise is unity and cooperation)

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FFXI functioned absolutely fine without this utopian existence you speak of.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

That is an atmosphere of competition, which some people enjoy. Stating that is was a horrible atmosphere does not make it true. You are stating an opinion.

It's a bit like saying you wished everyone in the world agreed on everything. Great in theory, but boring in reality.

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Abyssea is an example in the difference in atmosphere. With shorter respawns on the nm's and alot of forced pops, you see alot more players saying "Oh you only need one, ok go ahead" or "Let's team up your drops, we'll help you kill it faster so we can go". It's not the same *pounce at it the second it spawns* "This is mines!". When the nm's take an hour if not more to spawn you're less likely to want to help anyone.

From personal experience of hunting nms alongside some real douchebags (still love them <3). In this situtation you're more likely to get people willing to MPK, or other methods to get the mob to go yellow to steal. When you force the mobs to be scarce selfishness will take over. It might not happen to everyone but it will be there. I disagree with your point that it does not create a horrible atmosphere. I personally do not like to be around people who are out to steal from others or who blow a fuse when they are outclaimed. Yes it's opinion but generally speaking any atmosphere that generates greed, murderous intent (allbeit virtual), and anger is a negative one.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I'm probably the biggest fan of debate out there. But at a certain point the argument goes "meta-" and starts being about arguing about the argument or the arguers, instead of about the subject. Usually it happens in PvE vs. PvP threads. I'm surprised that NM respawn times are such a polarizing issue ... especially considering that it is quite possibly the easiest thing for SE to adjust in the entire game.

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Indeed.

I think we've said all that needed to be said. The devs will do as they see fit anyway. It's not something I'd expect people to quit over.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

Abyssea is an example in the difference in atmosphere. With shorter respawns on the nm's and alot of forced pops, you see alot more players saying "Oh you only need one, ok go ahead" or "Let's team up your drops, we'll help you kill it faster so we can go". It's not the same *pounce at it the second it spawns* "This is mines!". When the nm's take an hour if not more to spawn you're less likely to want to help anyone.

From personal experience of hunting nms alongside some real douchebags (still love them <3). In this situtation you're more likely to get people willing to MPK, or other methods to get the mob to go yellow to steal. When you force the mobs to be scarce selfishness will take over. It might not happen to everyone but it will be there. I disagree with your point that it does not create a horrible atmosphere. I personally do not like to be around people who are out to steal from others or who blow a fuse when they are outclaimed. Yes it's opinion but generally speaking any atmosphere that generates greed, murderous intent (allbeit virtual), and anger is a negative one.

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I actually disagree with this. Obviously we could do without all the MPKing and such nonsense. Those issues can be addressed. However, I do value the sort of competition we saw in XI. It can lead to unsavoury incidents, but for me the positives outweighed the negatives. I particularly enjoyed the competition between linkshells. That was a huge selling point for me.