PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Totally serious! A DPSing healer gives me an excuse to relax instead of going pedal to the metal.

---

https://e.lvme.me/pzv5j7l.jpg

Im glad for the change it never made any sense to me stance dancing to swap mnd into int if I wanted to do that I'd gone blm. Know I can dps and heal without worry staring at my 3 sec cool down crossing my fingers ppl Dodge during that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aramina

The thing is, you (nor I nor any singular entity) gets to decide what qualifies as a healthy community. I have my personal opinions on how I would like to people to play (which are very similar to yours), however, at the end of the day if the masses decide playing a lower level than that is what they want... then their way turns out to be what is healthier. Majority rules and all that.

---

And you are not in the position to decide what people should care about either. You are not the majority you are speaking of either. So stop this hypocrisy and let people care about what they want to care. Saying that it's a non-issue is disrespectful for people experiencing said issue, and for those who care about resolving it.

I'm not deciding what is or isn't a "healthy community". It's obvious that lazy, egoistic, careless and selfish behaviors are not welcome in a social group of people working together to achieve a common goal. In short: is someone doing only half of what s/he should be doing detrimental to others? Yes, it is.
I'm basically telling you that water is wet, and you answer me with "you don't get to decide". So you do you, but I'm done answering these kind of posts.

Ok. Keep being miserable because people won't play the way you want them too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joannaluttrell

Ok. Keep being miserable because people won't play the way you want them too.

---

Or we can try to get them to be more active one way or another. If they absolutely refuse to DPS and I don't feel like getting a new healer then I guess I am going to just pull everything I can, drop my tank stance, etc. to make a situation where a 100% heal time is required. If they want to heal, I can adapt to their play style and they can heal me more while I get to boost my DPS!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yahallo

Or we can try to get them to be more active one way or another. If they absolutely refuse to DPS and I don't feel like getting a new healer then I guess I am going to just pull everything I can, drop my tank stance, etc. to make a situation where a 100% heal time is required. If they want to heal, I can adapt to their play style and they can heal me more while I get to boost my DPS!

---

then theyre gonna cry too because they cant netflix anymore...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faliandra

then theyre gonna cry too because they cant netflix anymore...

---

That means they want to be afk 80% of the time right? Kicking for afk is a listed reason right? So by extension, 80% of the time it would be okay to kick them. So we just have to make sure we are initiating the vote dismiss within that 80% window. Shouldn't be too hard considering that is 4/5ths of the time. They can't complain if it is a listed reason right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yahallo

That means they want to be afk 80% of the time right? Kicking for afk is a listed reason right? So by extension, 80% of the time it would be okay to kick them. So we just have to make sure we are initiating the vote dismiss within that 80% window. Shouldn't be too hard considering that is 4/5ths of the time. They can't complain if it is a listed reason right?

---

Nah it's pretty obvious to distinguish the people jumping/standing around with nothing to do over the players actually wrestling with health bars due to lack of comfort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

When cleric stance is getting removed from 4.0 and mind effects on healers dps, does this mean healers are not allowed to focus more on healing anymore, instead main focus is dps now in dungeons, trials and raids?

---

Yes
And if someone complain, then say that he should use a potion. Doing damage as a healer is more important. Healing is second, if nothing is here to hit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Yes
And if someone complain, then say that he should use a potion. Doing damage as a healer is more important. Healing is second, if nothing is here to hit.

---

No one is saying that.

Basically, there is no more "barrier" to being able to cast damage spells come 4.0, so it should be easier for healers to cast some offensive spells between heals.

At no point did anyone try to suggest that DPS on healer is more important that their primary role of healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

No one is saying that.

At no point did anyone try to suggest that DPS on healer is more important that their primary role of healing.

---

Actually some of them really DO believe that, they are that delusional. Some of them really seem to think they're doing some kind of uber damage. And they only wanted to play a healer so they can DPS and not worry about the queue time.

Yeah run into those way more than I have the other way.

I'll be going... ok this is our first pull of the day... why exactly did the tank just die, and then this horde of mobs gang pile me?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jazmyn

So... I had a really snarky reply to some of the elitist posters, but changed my mind because honestly I think some of them are just trolling. Plain and simple fact if you don't like playing with casual players find a new game. Have a awesome day!!!

---

I don't mind casual players. I put up with two BLMs in a party who were absolutely terrible. Made my run take almost 40 minutes. But you know what? At least they were participating.

It's when you stand there doing nothing that you're pushing your luck.

I have so many thoughts. Let's see:

1) I empathize with people who are upset that they did not get what they thought they were signing up for. Healer roles in many other MMOs work very differently than they appear to in FFXIV. The sense of 'bait and switch' can be frustrating.

2) That said, if you don't want to suck after making that discovery you have two choices: adapt or pick a new class. (Or suck, but we're assuming intelligence here.)

3) People are not looking for healers to tear up the DPS chart and beat the actual DPS jobs. They're looking for people to get their hand outta the cheeto bag and back onto the mouse or keys.

4) The DPS does not need to start out as some pure DPS Savage rotation. As a healer it basically can't be that, even at its best, anyway.

5) With that said, if there is a lull in what's going on with healing and dodging red crap (which can vary for different people--I have cerebral palsy, arthritis and am legally blind, so I totally get this) there is no reason a white mage can't use their best Aero spell or drop a Stone spell here and there.

6) Is there challenge in learning to do this and adapting playstyle if someone comes from the background described in #1? Of course. But that's perfectly fine. Rome wasn't built in a day and someone's playstyle need not do a 180 in a day, either. It's the willingness to learn and grow, and the determination to master one's class, that ultimately matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaneakki

. Shadowflare helps too for the sake of 20% slower.

---

5%. Shadow flare slow is so miniscule that targets have to be up for more than 30 seconds at minimum to get any mitigation at all. I do wish people would stop trying to sell a 5% slow as useful. Rend Mind and Dismantle both mitigate more damage than Shadow flare could ever dream.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silverquick

Actually some of them really DO believe that, they are that delusional. Some of them really seem to think they're doing some kind of uber damage. And they only wanted to play a healer so they can DPS and not worry about the queue time.

Yeah run into those way more than I have the other way.

I'll be going... ok this is our first pull of the day... why exactly did the tank just die, and then this horde of mobs gang pile me?

---

This is why I advocate chilling and relaxing when you get A DPS obsessed healer~ You're gonna wipe soon, so why fight the inevitable. <3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

Basically, there is no more "barrier" to being able to cast damage spells come 4.0, so it should be easier for healers to cast some offensive spells between heals.

---

What about the MP wasted on damaging spells - is that a concern at all? In other words, if you want the barrier to truly be removed, healers should not have to think about managing their MP when casting damaging spells or else the barrier to encouraging more players to be healers still exists, it was just eased ever so slightly. Healers want to heal not have to worry about "tank died - I ran out of MP because the group forced me to dps too hard."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

What about the MP wasted on damaging spells - is that a concern at all? In other words, if you want the barrier to truly be removed, healers should not have to think about managing their MP when casting damaging spells or else the barrier to encouraging more players to be healers still exists, it was just eased ever so slightly. Healers want to heal not have to worry about "tank died - I ran out of MP because the group forced me to dps too hard."

---

That literally never happens unless you sit on the Holy/Gravity button. Shroud of Saints and Luminadfewfasdf Aether exist for a reason.

Healers, like all other classes, have to pick the best skills to use at any given moment to conserve resources. If you're being a dumb*** hitting whatever you want, of course you're going to run out of mana. And that is your fault not anyone elses'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

What about the MP wasted on damaging spells - is that a concern at all? In other words, if you want the barrier to truly be removed, healers should not have to think about managing their MP when casting damaging spells or else the barrier to encouraging more players to be healers still exists, it was just eased ever so slightly. Healers want to heal not have to worry about "tank died - I ran out of MP because the group forced me to dps too hard."

---

MP management is a thing. Exercise some common sense as well as the tools the game has given you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

5%. Shadow flare slow is so miniscule that targets have to be up for more than 30 seconds at minimum to get any mitigation at all. I do wish people would stop trying to sell a 5% slow as useful. Rend Mind and Dismantle both mitigate more damage than Shadow flare could ever dream.



This is why I advocate chilling and relaxing when you get A DPS obsessed healer~ You're gonna wipe soon, so why fight the inevitable. <3

---

Well I will admit that is true.


Shadowflare as a SMN and at 60th lvl i270... does about 400 damage per tick. Its real value is when combined with the rest of your DoTs. The Bio/Miasma/Bio 2 combo will do about 1700 damage per tick... combine it with Shadowflare and its about 2000 per tick.

BUT that's for a SMN... not SCH.

We also tend to go with a lot of Crit gear as a SMN... and each individual DoT has a chance to crit per tick... so its basically 4 chances per tick that something will crit and shoot it over the 2000 mark.

Its why SMN runs with a lot of Crit gear... (I'm running about 1050 Crit currently) most of our stuff is AoE and has multiple components.

So as to where a single target spell or attack has 1 chance to crit... on 10 mobs a BANE'd DoT will have 40 of them.

A SCH will never reach that point...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

Healers want to heal not have to worry about "tank died - I ran out of MP because the group forced me to dps too hard."

---

Everyone in the game has to deal with managing resources be it TP or MP.

I can't wrap my head around this victim mentality that seems so prevalent among healer mains (at least here on the OF). If things are as bad as people are saying, why do you keep playing healer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silverquick

Snip...

---

Well, the point I was disputing was that Shadowflare's 5% slow was useful and effective mitigation, when that's not how the slow works, and most any perceived mitigation "gained" from it is more akin to a placebo effect, since Slow doesn't mitigate damage, just slightly reduced the rate it comes in. At 5% you're looking at a hundredth of a second or less, assuming a 2.5 mob gcd, which is why it needs to be up for over 30+ seconds before you'll actually start seeing a reduced number of attacks.

Shadow flare=Nonexistent mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

Everyone in the game has to deal with managing resources be it TP or MP.

I can't wrap my head around this victim mentality that seems so prevalent among healer mains (at least here on the OF). If things are as bad as people are saying, why do you keep playing healer?

---

Because it's fun to watch people rage when you let them die so you can pursue your own numbers? They're already whining at us when we don't dps so may as well have some fun and give them exactly what they want~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

What about the MP wasted on damaging spells - is that a concern at all?

---

It generally shouldn't be one - Healers got massive mana pools, low costs and in-built regeneration tools. Moreover, cooldowns don't cost any mana. It's not like you have to sit down and drink every other mob pull like I used to when I started playing WoW >_>

I can only speak for dungeons, but there you can dump around 80% of your mana into AoE DPS and keep the rest for healing. I'm not even sure if you CAN go OOM from healing alone without pointlessly spamming overheals, AoEs or resurrection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because it's fun to watch people rage when you let them die so you can pursue your own numbers? They're already whining at us when we don't dps so may as well have some fun and give them exactly what they want~

---

https://68.media.tumblr.com/6f19044d...teupc5_540.gif

I want to die.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

It generally shouldn't be one - Healers got massive mana pools, low costs and in-built regeneration tools. Moreover, cooldowns don't cost any mana. It's not like you have to sit down and drink every other mob pull like I used to when I started playing WoW >_>.

---

Yet... I still on occasion have to ask why the Tank just died and I have mobs gang piling me...

I shouldn't have to be asking that...

Your job is to keep that tank alive first and foremost... not DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

Everyone in the game has to deal with managing resources be it TP or MP.

I can't wrap my head around this victim mentality that seems so prevalent among healer mains (at least here on the OF). If things are as bad as people are saying, why do you keep playing healer?

---

No other role is expected to perform double duty other than a healer though - that is my point. Healers should be focused on utility (like buffs/debuffs/raising bad DD's) and healing - DPS should be left to the DD's (and lesser extent tanks, which naturally do DPS while holding threat.) I'm not sure why players can not understand the core of the issue of "not enough healers."

So many people take these examples to the extreme. Obviously we do not want you to put your DPS over healing if it is needed but if you're sitting there with full MP and minimal damage coming in a quick holy or dot isn't going to kill you or the tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

No other role is expected to perform double duty other than a healer though - that is my point. Healers should be focused on utility (like buffs/debuffs/raising bad DD's) and healing - DPS should be left to the DD's (and lesser extent tanks, which naturally do DPS while holding threat.) I'm not sure why players can not understand the core of the issue of "not enough healers."

---

Not exactly, Tanks are expected to mitigate damage coming in (to help healers) and pump out as much damage as they can, not just sit there and use overpower or flash constantly. DPS are expected to assist with debuffs, mana/TP song, even rezzing if the healer is busy and they are able.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

No other role is expected to perform double duty other than a healer though - that is my point. Healers should be focused on utility (like buffs/debuffs/raising bad DD's) and healing - DPS should be left to the DD's (and lesser extent tanks, which naturally do DPS while holding threat.)

---

No other role gets the luxury of down time mid-fight.

This has already been said at least five times, but if a tank goes in to content and just uses flash repeatedly to maintain hate on everything, is that good enough? It shouldn't be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by missybee

This has already been said at least five times, but if a tank goes in to content and just uses flash repeatedly to maintain hate on everything, is that good enough? It shouldn't be.

---

Trust me, by the last setence you said, this might be the logic of most people in here. As long the content is cleared, why not? I honestly have NO idea why people love to stand around doing nothing but expects others to work their asses off. Why does people have a mentality of saying its all about them but never about others. /think

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaneakki

Trust me, by the last setence you said, this might be the logic of most people in here. As long the content is cleared, why not?

---

So you're also OK with DPS jobs doing the minimum damage to clear the content within the given time frame? Hell yeah for 60 minute DF dungeons.

Amazed by the amount of people who thinks do nothing for 12/15 minutes in a 15/20 minutes long dungeon isn't leeching and the point of the job ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leanna

Amazed by the amount of people who thinks do nothing for 12/15 minutes in a 15/20 minutes long dungeon isn't leeching and the point of the job ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

Sounds like SE needs to design dungeons around MORE healing needed then...or stop calling them healer roles and change the official role name to support dps because that is more fitting based on current player expectations of healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

Sounds like SE needs to design dungeons around MORE healing needed then...or stop calling them healer roles and change the official role name to support dps because that is more fitting based on current player expectations of healers.

---

Player expectations are set on having each individual in a group reaching as close as a 100% uptime during a fight as possible.
i.e : If the fight needs you to heal during 100% of the fight then that's great, you reached 100% uptime. But if the fight needs you to heal during 50% of the time then I expect you to use as close as the 50% uptime remaining to do something useful. Always Be Casting isn't only a saying for Casters, it just means that you should use every GCD windows at your disposal the best you can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because it's fun to watch people rage when you let them die so you can pursue your own numbers? They're already whining at us when we don't dps so may as well have some fun and give them exactly what they want~

---

You realize what they want is a healer who plays their role efficiently, yes? All you accomplish by letting them die because "I'm just DPSing like you want" is showcasing you're a bad player or intentionally trolling. Either way, you wind up being the toxic player, thereby justifying them wanting to kick you. So... well done, I guess?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tharne

Player expectations are set on having each individual in a group reaching as close as a 100% uptime during a fight as possible.
i.e : If the fight needs you to heal during 100% of the fight then that's great, you reached 100% uptime. But if the fight needs you to heal during 50% of the time then I expect you to use as close as the 50% uptime remaining to do something useful. Always Be Casting isn't only a saying for Casters, it just means that you should use every GCD windows at your disposal the best you can.

---

And that is where the problem arises~ People are expecting way too much in a game with millions of others. To think that everyone will play exactly how you vision is absurd. No amount of arguing on the forums will change that. I am still wondering why is this going on. It's just a never ending circle of people bickering at each other.

What is this MP problem people talk about?

I dps mercilessly on my WHM until im almost OOM.

Does it matter? Nah, if the dps is decent,the mobs will be dead by then and I'll have enough time to recover some MP until the next pull.
I also start using my MP recovery spells BEFORE I run dry completely with the aim of trying to use it as much as possible.

So basically I spam Holy and use Aero III/Assize --> massive AoE damage -> mobs are initially stunned --> no heals needed --> mobs die faster, less heals needed.

Tank needs healing? Did you know some healing skills cost 0 MP?

WHM: Tetragrammaton /Benediction/Asylum/ Cure II if it procs

AST: Essential Dignity/Collective Unconcious (on top of this, ASTs can give themselves Ewers and extend their lumniferous aether by an additional 10 secs)

SCH: Lustrate/Indomitability/ a fairy pet who has an endless mp pool (+ Rouse to buff the fairy is 0mp too)


Instead of arguing about the issues endlessly, it would help if people would start using their resources in a useful way.
Also, get rid of the mindset that every healthbar has to be at 100% at any given time.


I know its a crazy idea but...how about you just try it instead of just completely refusing it all the time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

What about the MP wasted on damaging spells - is that a concern at all? In other words, if you want the barrier to truly be removed, healers should not have to think about managing their MP when casting damaging spells or else the barrier to encouraging more players to be healers still exists, it was just eased ever so slightly. Healers want to heal not have to worry about "tank died - I ran out of MP because the group forced me to dps too hard."

---

You can heal with 600 MP and your MP restoration skill active. You have, what? Like 8000 MP?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

Sounds like SE needs to design dungeons around MORE healing needed then...or stop calling them healer roles and change the official role name to support dps because that is more fitting based on current player expectations of healers.

---

Gods that would be a disaster... I've seen these "pure healers" in action, first heal check everyone is dead. I think people need to forget this narrative they try to push about how they are better healers cause they just focus on healing. The real story is they are pure healers cause they have the reaction time of a sloth and want an easy ride.

(I never thought i'd have to teach someone how to precast a heal til one joined my FC...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayerinn

What about the MP wasted on damaging spells - is that a concern at all? In other words, if you want the barrier to truly be removed, healers should not have to think about managing their MP when casting damaging spells or else the barrier to encouraging more players to be healers still exists, it was just eased ever so slightly. Healers want to heal not have to worry about "tank died - I ran out of MP because the group forced me to dps too hard."

---

You need to manage your resources better if you're running dry. Don't save Shroud until you're at 2-3,000 MP, pop it when you're at 9,000/10,000 so you'll have it again far earlier.

We had some pure healers yesterday in A12N. The party wiped twice at the end of the fight. Both healers had nearly full mp bars. Once the tanks (who were mitigating) went down, the party slowly collapsed until we wiped. Twice.

Pure healers =/= good healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bounddreamer

We had some pure healers yesterday in A12N. The party wiped twice at the end of the fight. Both healers had nearly full mp bars. Once the tanks (who were mitigating) went down, the party slowly collapsed until we wiped. Twice.

Pure healers =/= good healers.

---

Yup, my last experience in that fight was with a no-DPS AST, so I first let her solo heal --> couldn't keep tanks up in add phase... In the end, I ended up doing DPS and healing more than this AST on my WHM.

Based on my experiences, often it seems the healers who don't DPS don't know how to use their heals and buffs correctly, and because of that their healing is ineffective (spamming cure II when Divine Seal regen would do, using Medica right after Medica II to cancel the usefulness of the regen, not shielding tanks for tank busters, not utilising Virus, Disable and Eye for an Eye etc.) and they're running out of MP. Learning to DPS as a healer requires one to know when and how much damage is coming and also how to use your abilities as effectively as possible to create room for that DPS.