Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by PaleYonder

Revolutionary indeed! Thanks a lot for that advice, I'll make sure to check that out. I was going to ignore the role quest NPC entirely cause I was so soured on the whole region and the expansion's storytelling.

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It's just the MSQ that is an absolute dumpster fire. The Side Quests, Role Quests, and Deliveries are blessedly Wuk free.

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Originally Posted by PaleYonder

Revolutionary indeed! Thanks a lot for that advice, I'll make sure to check that out. I was going to ignore the role quest NPC entirely cause I was so soured on the whole region and the expansion's storytelling.

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If anything most of the side content seems better fleshed out and respectful to the player. I noticed when doing the blue quests for the aethercurrents. I’m considering checking out all of the yellow sidequests for the first time in this game. The cornservant quest was a decent appetizer.

It's sad to say but, after having completed a couple of the Role Quests (Tank, Healer, MDPS and Botanist/Miner) it's clear that those with the skill to craft engaging character driven stories have been put to work on the """optional""" content.

Not to disparage the writing team but, while I found myself thoroughly enjoying and immersed in the small stories, I kept getting pulled out wondering 'why wasn't this in MSQ?'.

These small stories made me feel more integrated into the world, more interested in the customs and cultures of the individuals I was aiding. There was a point in one of those stories (which I will not spoil) that had the NPC companion bring up a really good point that I had not thought of and it felt refreshing. It felt like I was engaging with intelligent characters who could look at the world with different perspectives from their own experiences that mirrored my own.

I ended up crying over the resolution to one of the quest lines despite not dropping a single tear during MSQ, it moved me so much and this was because we were slowly building connections with the NPCs in the story who were working together, bouncing off of each other, reflecting their flaws and faults back at one another, reacting naturally. And to top it off, there was, once again, acknowledgement of the WOL and their accomplishments and abilities throughout the stories. Even if it's a bit of a cop-out saying 'say character regards you as xyz now' it was already reflected in the dialogue that, even if that little pop up didn't appear, I would still feel like my esteem with the NPC had changed in some way.

In my humble opinion, this is what Dawntrail should have been at it's heart. Not about supporting a candidate in a cross-country propaganda tour but as series of smaller stories about working alongside, helping and, sometimes, butting heads against different cultures as we learn more about the continent and it's people.

Looking back on it now, I really thought that's what Dawntrail was going to be (before the patch content with Wuk Lamat came out). I was hopeful that we would be able to go to a foreign land, awash of our titles as Star Savior and Champion of Eorzea and be allowed to be a normal person adventuring and exploring.

As much as the game wants you to think you're on vacation, that you're supposed to relax and take it easy, how can you do that when the reason you're brought to Tural in the first places is by the titles you hold? When you've been singled out because of your skills and experiences and knowledge only to tap out and play games on your phone while you baby sit a sheltered princess who can seemingly do no wrong.

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Originally Posted by arstoka

It's sad to say but, after having completed a couple of the Role Quests (Tank, Healer, MDPS and Botanist/Miner) it's clear that those with the skill to craft engaging character driven stories have been put to work on the """optional""" content.

Not to disparage the writing team but, while I found myself thoroughly enjoying and immersed in the small stories, I kept getting pulled out wondering 'why wasn't this in MSQ?'.

These small stories made me feel more integrated into the world, more interested in the customs and cultures of the individuals I was aiding. There was a point in one of those stories (which I will not spoil) that had the NPC companion bring up a really good point that I had not thought of and it felt refreshing. It felt like I was engaging with intelligent characters who could look at the world with different perspectives from their own experiences that mirrored my own.

I ended up crying over the resolution to one of the quest lines despite not dropping a single tear during MSQ, it moved me so much and this was because we were slowly building connections with the NPCs in the story who were working together, bouncing off of each other, reflecting their flaws and faults back at one another, reacting naturally. And to top it off, there was, once again, acknowledgement of the WOL and their accomplishments and abilities throughout the stories. Even if it's a bit of a cop-out saying 'say character regards you as xyz now' it was already reflected in the dialogue that, even if that little pop up didn't appear, I would still feel like my esteem with the NPC had changed in some way.

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This was my experience as well.
The sidestories are really great this time.

I have a theory, maybe tinfoil hat but whatever.
The sidequests worked because they didn't have to go to a proxy like Wuk Lamat but were directed at only us.
Because there is no character that "remarks" on things just to say something or to be in a scene or to complete a dialogue the NPC's have to tell more and tell it in more detail.

The MSQ had the problem of unnaturla dialogue because in nature the characters have to react to stuff. The other expansions also had this problem but this time almost all of it went through one single character that also had to react.

Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

If anything most of the side content seems better fleshed out and respectful to the player. I noticed when doing the blue quests for the aethercurrents. I’m considering checking out all of the yellow sidequests for the first time in this game. The cornservant quest was a decent appetizer.

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Yup, that's what I'm doing right now. Crafting, side quests, slowly starting to level jobs - nice and relaxing. Just like this expansion's supposed to be. Too bad MSQ writer(s) didn't get the memo.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I think what isn't hitting many of you, and it never really does, is that most of this writing team does not think or care nearly as much about the story as players do. They will read your post, not care, and msq will be more of the same.

This should have been obvious since the patches when they completely failed to set up a premise for even visiting Tural outside "we have nothing better to do".

The thing is, people cling to a handful of very high moments the team has pulled off, mostly in 6.0 and 5.0, and then overrate them as they can do no wrong, when the writers egularly do wrong every expansion.

That's not to say the OP is a waste of time or anything. It's just worth considering when things in the story don't make sense, when lore is screwed, etc it's because the writing team simply doesn't care. Seems obvious. They think combat and graphics will satisfy you enough to coast on vibes

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Actually forced to agree.

The first thing most think of when anyone mentions Shadowbringers is the (admittedly absolutely epic) "This is our future. Our Story" moment. The elements of the story most think of when Endwalker is being discussed is either 'The Walk' or Zenos breaking reality, scoffing at the apocalypse and then basically telling us we were better than whatever the hell that thing (Endsinger) was.

That means that the chaff gets ignored. Shadowbringers was fantastic. On the other hand it gave us the catastrophic bore that was Ran'jit who kicked everyone's ass effortlessly, and sort-of beat the WoL, the first few times we fought him. Fell down a damn hole but inexplicably survived, was defeated by Thancred but magics himself away somehow. None of which is really explained. Its like they wanted another Zenos but didn't bother explaining why this one was an OP powerhouse. And then reappears from no-where without explanation to fight, and be defeated by, the WoL. That should've been Thancred's win.

And Endwalker - well, the issues with Endwalker's story have been discussed in numerous threads over several years.

But those negatives are all but forgotten because of the aforementioned moments of awesome. Unfortunately, Dawntrail doesn't really have one of those moments per-se. The final boss might have been one if not for the limelight being redirected to Wuk Lamat. I might have said that the 'Vrtra to the Rescue' cutscene might qualify.... but since it was an Endwalker character, and they played Endwalker music, I think that cutscene relies too heavily on nostalgia.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

But those negatives are all but forgotten because of the aforementioned moments of awesome. Unfortunately, Dawntrail doesn't really have one of those moments per-se. The final boss might have been one if not for the limelight being redirected to Wuk Lamat. I might have said that the 'Vrtra to the Rescue' cutscene might qualify.... but since it was an Endwalker character, and they played Endwalker music, I think that cutscene relies too heavily on nostalgia.

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The entire expansion tries to play the Nostalgia card. "Remember the Vanu?! Remember the Goblins?! Remember the Great Serpent of Ronka?! Remember all these things and moments from past expansions that you loved?!" Hell, there is an actual NPC called Nostalgia...

See, the problem with reminding us of the enjoyable moments that came before, is that it also highlights that there are almost no moments like that in DT that don't have to milk nostalgia. All it managed to do is go "Hey! Remember when the game DIDN'T suck ass? Too bad. Here's more Wuk Lamat."

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Originally Posted by Isala

The entire expansion tries to play the Nostalgia card. "Remember the Vanu?! Remember the Goblins?! Remember the Great Serpent of Ronka?! Remember all these things and moments from past expansions that you loved?!" Hell, there is an actual NPC called Nostalgia...

See, the problem with reminding us of the enjoyable moments that came before, is that it also highlights that there are almost no moments like that in DT that don't have to milk nostalgia. All it managed to do is go "Hey! Remember when the game DIDN'T suck ass? Too bad. Here's more Wuk Lamat."

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That, and also some very obvious attempt at compensating, or at least that's what I think. Y'stohla have a pretty big simp club, but never once it feels they're trying to force her character in your face. Whether with Wuk it could be the writer know the conceived a shallow characters so they try to compensate with a make believe attempt, hoping to ... idk - "trick" the players into buying it? Would it explain why every other NPCs suddenly lose all their personality to join Wuk's cheerleading squad.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

That, and also some very obvious attempt at compensating, or at least that's what I think. Y'stohla have a pretty big simp club, but never once it feels they're trying to force her character in your face. Whether with Wuk it could be the writer know the conceived a shallow characters so they try to compensate with a make believe attempt, hoping to ... idk - "trick" the players into buying it? Would it explain why every other NPCs suddenly lose all their personality to join Wuk's cheerleading squad.

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There is no singular moment in the expansion that highlights Wuk's effect on every other character better than her kidnapping. As soon as she's out of focus, we see competency, we see the same characters we've grown to know and love, shining in their specific roles. Seeing Thancred, with all his espionage skills on full display was a treat. Being treated as the muscle we are, as we baited out that guy and his goons. That was great. And the VERY SECOND we untie that stupid cat, every single character in that same cutscene immediately loses 90% of their personality.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

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While I don't necessarily disagree, the primary issue, as has been covered several times over in the varying threads in the forum, is the writing.

The entire story is focused on Wuk Lamat, her journey and her perspectives as she pursues her desire to become the Dawnservant.

The reason why the sidequests worked and the main story did not is a myriad of technical writing issues. To break them down, the writer(s) wished to focus on a central figure, to make said figure likeable and the only way they knew how to do this was to have everything revolve around them.

The narrative often refuses to engage with, give ample time to, and create character dynamics with the travelling party because, as I mentioned before, the writers may be insecure or egoistic in their beliefs of the players needing to/liking their protagonist. This is merely speculation of course.

Because of the inherent need to have a new "marketable" character, the writer(s) failed to understand what makes a narrative compelling.

Yes, we like to see characters grow and develop, we like to see them succeed. We also like to see how they engage with others and the world around them. Erenville being native to Tural and a "close friend" to Wuk Lamat is barely explored because the narrative is far too concerned with making sure that Wuk Lamat can be a 'tour guide' as well as cultural ambassador, comedy relief and, super powerful badass.

She is attempting to fulfill all the driving factors of each narrative, and when she isn't, her presence is mandated in some shape or form.

For example, Shaolaani's small sidequest is primarily focused on Wuk Lamat's nurse maid's bracelet being stolen, one that was graciously gifted to her by Wuk Lamat. We have little time to learn about the people of Shaolaani and their culture before and after.

This is because the narrative refuses to give any sort of space to the other characters for them to speak about the world, the people, and engage with others outside of trying to further the development of Wuk Lamat.

The sidequests were facilitated by the WOL because we need to be there to experience the events (and for gameplay purposes) however, the stories are self-contained and focus on the main characters who have, more or less, equal amounts of screen time to converse, reflect and engage with all parties. The focus is distributed evenly to the development of all (the two NPCs grow as characters, we learn more about the world and develop connections to these people).

Characters are allowed to reflect on what they learned, to speak their theories to others. It becomes an issue when the only information that is commented on is solely for the purpose of attempting to reinforce a character's behaviours/personality/ideologies/"""development"" (which happens far too frequently in Dawntrail).