Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by PaleYonder

The story has never been perfect, but I always came out liking it overall, even the weaker aspects. The quality drop this time is simply baffling though.

Case in point: For a palate cleanser I got my character into some casual crafting, starting almost from scratch cause it's a recently promoted alt. I'm currently in Ishgard helping a little dragonling become a crafter, talking to people, offering guidance. It's utterly irrelevant cutesy slice-of-life optional side quest fluff. And it's got more politics, worldbuilding, local culture, NPCs with (some) discernible personality, and us acting as an accomplished mentor, guiding this little dragon, than any of Dawntrail has. I actually care about this.
It's depressing.

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I recommend doing all the role quests after MSQ as a palette cleanser too. Really feels like I have my character back after her being held hostage for 30 hours by the MSQ.

And fuck, the quest hook is "there are beasts running amok"? And when I go to the quest objective, there's a dude there lying on the ground surrounded by purple smoke and I actually fight the damn beasts? Revolutionary.

They even immediately after show how badass the NPC lead of the quest chain is, by having him easily kill some more monsters that show up to threaten WoL. Something I'm told I must hate from the bottom of my heart because of my "main character syndrom", but I dunno, somehow the little agency made all the red go away. It's the darnedest thing.

And when there's another cutscene where the villain gets away, blam, straight from the cutscene into another fight as I'm jumped by the villain's underlings. So it doesn't look like I just let her walk away for no reason. Wow. Gameplay and story? Working together?

Seriously though, is there an entirely different team directing the role quests, and why aren't they directing the MSQ?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Indeed. It also doesn't help that the team was on an upward trajectory through the last arc. The writing was becoming more and more critically acclaimed over time, which makes it easier to overlook blunders or inconsistencies present in all those expansions and forget just how dull the storytelling can get. I think the toxic positivity is driven around high points in HW, SHB, and now EW, which all had very high "highs". Some players are going to tell you that you just don't "get it" or you're hating because the team had Ws in the past.

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I'll be honest. If the criticism get's Square to finally pull the pants up and care more about the game again then I will "forgive" all this.
I think you are right that the players actually care more about the story then they do and that they probably had a pretty high horse to sit on after EW.
The dungeons showed that a slap in the face to wake them up can actually work (and yes it was the criticism no matter how they want to sell it as their own idea). Lets hope it's the same with the story because it seems to be more players criticizing it then the combat back then.

For me some live letters have shown some kind of disconnect of the devs if not arrogance (Yoshida's "you care so much for the story?" for questions about Azem or that one time with the Hrothgar hair debacle (you know, those stupid pictures?)).
It was sometimes like a mentallity of "too big to fail" or "they will buy it anyway".
Dissapointing in the story though get's bad when that is the thing the game prides itself on and the one thing both casuals and hardcore players enjoy to a big chunk.
There was always some nagging and hating but all in all the story was regarded as good to great. DT... I really don't know when the last time was I saw such a big split everywhere, not just here.

I wait for the first patch and then I will see.

It's just crazy to me that ff14 has that stepchild status at square. It really seems like it was successfull to this day despite Square (not the devs mind you) not because of it.
They have the favourite child ff7 and and then ff14.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It'll be interesting what interviews and other dev statements are like (such as LLs). EW had this glowing aura around it and a very high MC score. DT is now the lowest. I'm not sure what they can say. "Sorry we f'd that up, please play the patches"? Lol. It's not like they can fix the MSQ, not for this level anyway.

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They probably won't apologize for it nor do I think it is needed (just do better and actually recognize the feedback).
There may be remarks like "we tried something but it was not received as we thought" or "we got a lot of feedback and will look into how to be better to hold your and our standard".

They probably have a few meetings now if only because of the scores on the internet and may slightly adjust the patch story but not much (maybe switch Wuk Lamat for someone else and have no voiceover there).
Who knows. Maybe they even knew that the story would be diverse in the reception and the patch story is somethingelse entirely to then quickly respont to feedback, like the void questline.

It'll be interesting what interviews and other dev statements are like (such as LLs). EW had this glowing aura around it and a very high MC score. DT is now the lowest. I'm not sure what they can say. "Sorry we f'd that up, please play the patches"? Lol. It's not like they can fix the MSQ, not for this level anyway.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

I'll be honest. If the criticism get's Square to finally pull the pants up and care more about the game again then I will "forgive" all this.
I think you are right that the players actually care more about the story then they do and that they probably had a pretty high horse to sit on after EW.
The dungeons showed that a slap in the face to wake them up can actually work (and yes it was the criticism no matter how they want to sell it as their own idea). Lets hope it's the same with the story because it seems to be more players criticizing it then the combat back then.

For me some live letters have shown some kind of disconnect of the devs if not arrogance (Yoshida's "you care so much for the story?" for questions about Azem or that one time with the Hrothgar hair debacle (you know, those stupid pictures?)).
It was sometimes like a mentallity of "too big to fail" or "they will buy it anyway".
Dissapointing in the story though get's bad when that is the thing the game prides itself on and the one thing both casuals and hardcore players enjoy to a big chunk.
There was always some nagging and hating but all in all the story was regarded as good to great. DT... I really don't know when the last time was I saw such a big split everywhere, not just here.

I wait for the first patch and then I will see.

It's just crazy to me that ff14 has that stepchild status at square. It really seems like it was successfull to this day despite Square (not the devs mind you) not because of it.
They have the favourite child ff7 and and then ff14.

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I also get the "too big to fail" vibe. And yeah the devs have comments like the one you mentioned, where they point out that players are thinking more about the story than them. They just expect you to vibe your way through the experience because it's a game. It's very unfortunate that certain people on the team just throw their hands up on storytelling because it's a popular game. But they' eat up credit when the writing is praised..

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I recommend doing all the role quests after MSQ as a palette cleanser too. Really feels like I have my character back after her being held hostage for 30 hours by the MSQ.

And fuck, the quest hook is "there are beasts running amok"? And when I go to the quest objective, there's a dude there lying on the ground surrounded by purple smoke and I actually fight the damn beasts? Revolutionary.

They even immediately after show how badass the NPC lead of the quest chain is, by having him easily kill some more monsters that show up to threaten WoL. Something I'm told I must hate from the bottom of my heart because of my "main character syndrom", but I dunno, somehow the little agency made all the red go away. It's the darnedest thing.

And when there's another cutscene where the villain gets away, blam, straight from the cutscene into another fight as I'm jumped by the villain's underlings. So it doesn't look like I just let her walk away for no reason. Wow. Gameplay and story? Working together?

Seriously though, is there an entirely different team directing the role quests, and why aren't they directing the MSQ?

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Revolutionary indeed! Thanks a lot for that advice, I'll make sure to check that out. I was going to ignore the role quest NPC entirely cause I was so soured on the whole region and the expansion's storytelling.

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Originally Posted by PaleYonder

Revolutionary indeed! Thanks a lot for that advice, I'll make sure to check that out. I was going to ignore the role quest NPC entirely cause I was so soured on the whole region and the expansion's storytelling.

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It's just the MSQ that is an absolute dumpster fire. The Side Quests, Role Quests, and Deliveries are blessedly Wuk free.

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Originally Posted by PaleYonder

Revolutionary indeed! Thanks a lot for that advice, I'll make sure to check that out. I was going to ignore the role quest NPC entirely cause I was so soured on the whole region and the expansion's storytelling.

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If anything most of the side content seems better fleshed out and respectful to the player. I noticed when doing the blue quests for the aethercurrents. I’m considering checking out all of the yellow sidequests for the first time in this game. The cornservant quest was a decent appetizer.

It's sad to say but, after having completed a couple of the Role Quests (Tank, Healer, MDPS and Botanist/Miner) it's clear that those with the skill to craft engaging character driven stories have been put to work on the """optional""" content.

Not to disparage the writing team but, while I found myself thoroughly enjoying and immersed in the small stories, I kept getting pulled out wondering 'why wasn't this in MSQ?'.

These small stories made me feel more integrated into the world, more interested in the customs and cultures of the individuals I was aiding. There was a point in one of those stories (which I will not spoil) that had the NPC companion bring up a really good point that I had not thought of and it felt refreshing. It felt like I was engaging with intelligent characters who could look at the world with different perspectives from their own experiences that mirrored my own.

I ended up crying over the resolution to one of the quest lines despite not dropping a single tear during MSQ, it moved me so much and this was because we were slowly building connections with the NPCs in the story who were working together, bouncing off of each other, reflecting their flaws and faults back at one another, reacting naturally. And to top it off, there was, once again, acknowledgement of the WOL and their accomplishments and abilities throughout the stories. Even if it's a bit of a cop-out saying 'say character regards you as xyz now' it was already reflected in the dialogue that, even if that little pop up didn't appear, I would still feel like my esteem with the NPC had changed in some way.

In my humble opinion, this is what Dawntrail should have been at it's heart. Not about supporting a candidate in a cross-country propaganda tour but as series of smaller stories about working alongside, helping and, sometimes, butting heads against different cultures as we learn more about the continent and it's people.

Looking back on it now, I really thought that's what Dawntrail was going to be (before the patch content with Wuk Lamat came out). I was hopeful that we would be able to go to a foreign land, awash of our titles as Star Savior and Champion of Eorzea and be allowed to be a normal person adventuring and exploring.

As much as the game wants you to think you're on vacation, that you're supposed to relax and take it easy, how can you do that when the reason you're brought to Tural in the first places is by the titles you hold? When you've been singled out because of your skills and experiences and knowledge only to tap out and play games on your phone while you baby sit a sheltered princess who can seemingly do no wrong.

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Originally Posted by arstoka

It's sad to say but, after having completed a couple of the Role Quests (Tank, Healer, MDPS and Botanist/Miner) it's clear that those with the skill to craft engaging character driven stories have been put to work on the """optional""" content.

Not to disparage the writing team but, while I found myself thoroughly enjoying and immersed in the small stories, I kept getting pulled out wondering 'why wasn't this in MSQ?'.

These small stories made me feel more integrated into the world, more interested in the customs and cultures of the individuals I was aiding. There was a point in one of those stories (which I will not spoil) that had the NPC companion bring up a really good point that I had not thought of and it felt refreshing. It felt like I was engaging with intelligent characters who could look at the world with different perspectives from their own experiences that mirrored my own.

I ended up crying over the resolution to one of the quest lines despite not dropping a single tear during MSQ, it moved me so much and this was because we were slowly building connections with the NPCs in the story who were working together, bouncing off of each other, reflecting their flaws and faults back at one another, reacting naturally. And to top it off, there was, once again, acknowledgement of the WOL and their accomplishments and abilities throughout the stories. Even if it's a bit of a cop-out saying 'say character regards you as xyz now' it was already reflected in the dialogue that, even if that little pop up didn't appear, I would still feel like my esteem with the NPC had changed in some way.

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This was my experience as well.
The sidestories are really great this time.

I have a theory, maybe tinfoil hat but whatever.
The sidequests worked because they didn't have to go to a proxy like Wuk Lamat but were directed at only us.
Because there is no character that "remarks" on things just to say something or to be in a scene or to complete a dialogue the NPC's have to tell more and tell it in more detail.

The MSQ had the problem of unnaturla dialogue because in nature the characters have to react to stuff. The other expansions also had this problem but this time almost all of it went through one single character that also had to react.

Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

If anything most of the side content seems better fleshed out and respectful to the player. I noticed when doing the blue quests for the aethercurrents. I’m considering checking out all of the yellow sidequests for the first time in this game. The cornservant quest was a decent appetizer.

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Yup, that's what I'm doing right now. Crafting, side quests, slowly starting to level jobs - nice and relaxing. Just like this expansion's supposed to be. Too bad MSQ writer(s) didn't get the memo.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I think what isn't hitting many of you, and it never really does, is that most of this writing team does not think or care nearly as much about the story as players do. They will read your post, not care, and msq will be more of the same.

This should have been obvious since the patches when they completely failed to set up a premise for even visiting Tural outside "we have nothing better to do".

The thing is, people cling to a handful of very high moments the team has pulled off, mostly in 6.0 and 5.0, and then overrate them as they can do no wrong, when the writers egularly do wrong every expansion.

That's not to say the OP is a waste of time or anything. It's just worth considering when things in the story don't make sense, when lore is screwed, etc it's because the writing team simply doesn't care. Seems obvious. They think combat and graphics will satisfy you enough to coast on vibes

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Actually forced to agree.

The first thing most think of when anyone mentions Shadowbringers is the (admittedly absolutely epic) "This is our future. Our Story" moment. The elements of the story most think of when Endwalker is being discussed is either 'The Walk' or Zenos breaking reality, scoffing at the apocalypse and then basically telling us we were better than whatever the hell that thing (Endsinger) was.

That means that the chaff gets ignored. Shadowbringers was fantastic. On the other hand it gave us the catastrophic bore that was Ran'jit who kicked everyone's ass effortlessly, and sort-of beat the WoL, the first few times we fought him. Fell down a damn hole but inexplicably survived, was defeated by Thancred but magics himself away somehow. None of which is really explained. Its like they wanted another Zenos but didn't bother explaining why this one was an OP powerhouse. And then reappears from no-where without explanation to fight, and be defeated by, the WoL. That should've been Thancred's win.

And Endwalker - well, the issues with Endwalker's story have been discussed in numerous threads over several years.

But those negatives are all but forgotten because of the aforementioned moments of awesome. Unfortunately, Dawntrail doesn't really have one of those moments per-se. The final boss might have been one if not for the limelight being redirected to Wuk Lamat. I might have said that the 'Vrtra to the Rescue' cutscene might qualify.... but since it was an Endwalker character, and they played Endwalker music, I think that cutscene relies too heavily on nostalgia.