Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

Apparently yall took that to mean I'd hunt you down or something, sorry about that! I mean to say that if what Mawlzy says is true and there are more premades and what Archeron says is true that they skip each other. Then you won't be able to have a match without a premade in it. Premades continue to encourage more premades until you can't actually dodge them in que. Further past that point, everyone knows how to play against and with a premade thus everything becomes a premade. I'm currently helping train up more commanders to, so hopefully that will follow a similar route.

I'm glad you decided to que more Archeron! If you are good at leading your team then that'd be great for the community! (seems I'm making a change already aren't I?) If you need any discord invites feel free to ping me, and you have the link to my guide, feel free to use the macros in there. As for when "My" premade ques... I guess never since I don't have some static group? It feels a little disingenuous to ask what times I play when you hide behind an alt to "avoid getting harassed." You seem a little incapable of making any points or arguments without insulting people, and that might be leading you into a cycle of toxicity.

Regardless, If it was a wager between SE making changes that fixed FL and the community becoming better players; I'd put my money on the community being better first.

I understood what you meant. Clearly if you're training more premade commanders there will be more premades. You know how I feel about that so I won't dip into my bag of adjectives. But I do dispute the idea that more premades mean better players. Just means more of you playing FL on easy mode. More to the point, the XP/rewards crowd aren't going anywhere. The people you drive off are the higher-skilled solo players. At best I figure it'll be a wash. This is why I keep banging on about the topic.

If you do get a lot of premades, it'll make it that much easier for SE to give you your own queue! Wouldn't that be funner!? For all of us??? Right now, 5% of the FL playerbase is dictating how the other 95% has to play. Tail<-->Dog


And finally... PvP Discord servers. I came, I saw, I left. Forming light parties, frequently with "voice required" tagged, and these "events." >Shudder<

But thx.

Yeah I have to say FL has become much less fun as a solo player, even when I'm on the team with the DRK and 5 Astros it's just not fun being so one sided.

But I suppose nothing will change until SE starts giving a shit about FL and not balancing everything around CC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archeron

"Avoid" is defintely what people are doing when premades are in queue. It's baffling how they can't see this, but I guess the walls around the premade clique are opaque.

---

You know, I would agree that if a pre-made ( a competent one) in not in your alliance, it is more difficult to win, however some people seem to basically throw in the towel as soon as they encounter one.

The term "avoid", seems inaccurate to me, since some of them remain in the match but basically give up - "avoiding" would meaning leaving or avoiding FL, which they don't seem to do - but, they don't seem to want to improve, either. So I wonder why they queue, since how much fun can that be for them- and that definitely doesn't make things fun for some other people in their alliance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You know, I would agree that if a pre-made ( a competent one) in not in your alliance, it is more difficult to win, however some people seem to basically throw in the towel as soon as they encounter one.

The term "avoid", seems inaccurate to me, since some of them remain in the match but basically give up - "avoiding" would meaning leaving or avoiding FL, which they don't seem to do - but, they don't seem to want to improve, either. So I wonder why they queue, since how much fun can that be for them- and that definitely doesn't make things fun for some other people in their alliance.

---

Perhaps they have concluded that, even if they improved, they'd never reach the point where they could overcome the baked-in advantage enjoyed by premades?

Do you think when you find one of 'em tucked behind a rock or camped at the spawn point that repeated use of "/slap" on them would violate ToS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Olivia, I'm sure nobody has accused you of lacking self-confidence, but the entire evolution of FL has been to further restrict parties/premades. If these bloody "events" and Discord-based shenanigans get worse, as you seem to hope, that evolution may well get pushed to its logical conclusion.

---

While I'm not certain how NA will react to an increase in commanders and premades (probably negatively, if current sentiment continues). JP actually reacted positively to the very same thing. They have, I think, 8-10 famous commanders running around, dodging a premade is basically impossible, the players adapted by filing in behind the premade on their team and doing everything they can to support them.

As a purely solo player myself, I personally view the increase of commander types and premades as a good thing. If people are sick of dying all the time, it forces them to learn map awareness and positioning. It's also fun to get matches where everyone on the scoreboard has died at least once, I'd prefer that over one-sided stomps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

While I'm not certain how NA will react to an increase in commanders and premades (probably negatively, if current sentiment continues). JP actually reacted positively to the very same thing. They have, I think, 8-10 famous commanders running around, dodging a premade is basically impossible, the players adapted by filing in behind the premade on their team and doing everything they can to support them.

As a purely solo player myself, I personally view the increase of commander types and premades as a good thing. If people are sick of dying all the time, it forces them to learn map awareness and positioning. It's also fun to get matches where everyone on the scoreboard has died at least once, I'd prefer that over one-sided stomps.

---

One-sided stomps are definitely a possible negative outcome of premades that make the match dull for nearly everyone. But I think it's inaccurate to conflate the positives of a commander with a commander of a premade. Some direction helps, and the weaker the team, the more useful a forceful commander becomes. But a solo commander produces a very different match from a premade leader who is also shot-calling.

Some of the most enjoyable matches I've had feature very little chat at all. I guess there's some selection bias in there, in the sense that if the match is competitive without commands, the players are more competent than usual.

I do worry that, with a new generation of mini-Olivias taking the helm, the times they end up on the same team will just magnify the current problems. I guess I can hope they'll self-destruct through infighting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Perhaps they have concluded that, even if they improved, they'd never reach the point where they could overcome the baked-in advantage enjoyed by premades?

Do you think when you find one of 'em tucked behind a rock or camped at the spawn point that repeated use of "/slap" on them would violate ToS?

---

They could join up with some friend themselves, or other people. By the way pre-mades don't necessarily have some enormous "bake-in" advantage, it depends upon a number of factors. However if they are so discouraged, it goes to the "are you going fun?" question- if someone isn't, then why are they there, and even worse why would you potentially make other people's experience worse? I don't understand that.

Personally, I don't "/slap" I have been known however to resort to "/facepalm", though not repeatedly.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Apparently yall took that to mean I'd hunt you down or something, sorry about that! I mean to say that if what Mawlzy says is true and there are more premades and what Archeron says is true that they skip each other. Then you won't be able to have a match without a premade in it. Premades continue to encourage more premades until you can't actually dodge them in que. Further past that point, everyone knows how to play against and with a premade thus everything becomes a premade. I'm currently helping train up more commanders to, so hopefully that will follow a similar route.

I'm glad you decided to que more Archeron! If you are good at leading your team then that'd be great for the community! (seems I'm making a change already aren't I?) If you need any discord invites feel free to ping me, and you have the link to my guide, feel free to use the macros in there. As for when "My" premade ques... I guess never since I don't have some static group? It feels a little disingenuous to ask what times I play when you hide behind an alt to "avoid getting harassed." You seem a little incapable of making any points or arguments without insulting people, and that might be leading you into a cycle of toxicity.

Regardless, If it was a wager between SE making changes that fixed FL and the community becoming better players; I'd put my money on the community being better first.

---

I show as much respect as is given to me. If you're going to throw insults, and get passive aggressive with me, expect me to return the heat. I find that rather ironic comment coming from you, as you continue to admonish me for "hiding behind an alt" in the same breath, despite my legitimate concerns and reasons behind using an alt I don't really play on anymore. I don't want my FC members being harassed by unhinged forum members. Unless you have a legitimate reason behind wanting such information about my characters (Which I wouldn't entrust to you, as I see us on less than cordial terms.) its none of your business.

Your approach of "Lets make more premades so people will have to learn to fight them, or play with them." is not the solution. Like I have said in many threads, with the risk of sound like a broken record the core of frontlines PvP is flawed, and broken. There is nothing that can fix it beyond MAJOR overhaul to the game mode. The limiting of premade parties to two players, addition of vulnerability to Battle high, PvP hall of the novice, addition of more maps with a larger variety of objectives to score points, and rebalancing of jobs for large scale combat is just a few examples of what would have to happen to make the game mode more appealing to those people.

You may reach maybe 5% of the pvp frontline community if we're being generous. That 5% typically already knows what they're doing, and they don't need much, if any help in being more effective players. It's the PvE players that need to be given encouragement to give PvP a shot, and they won't when they get curb stomped repeatedly by premades who exist to farm kills off of them for easy wins. It frustrates them, and leaves a negative impression in their mind. Don't take my word for it. Go join novice network, and ask the players there for their general opinion of PvP. It is rarely positive. Without addressing what makes the mode bad for the majority of players, nothing will change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You know, I would agree that if a pre-made ( a competent one) in not in your alliance, it is more difficult to win, however some people seem to basically throw in the towel as soon as they encounter one.

The term "avoid", seems inaccurate to me, since some of them remain in the match but basically give up - "avoiding" would meaning leaving or avoiding FL, which they don't seem to do - but, they don't seem to want to improve, either. So I wonder why they queue, since how much fun can that be for them- and that definitely doesn't make things fun for some other people in their alliance.

---

I call it avoid, because premades are a major reason why people won't requeue for PvP. Especially if you're trying to farm wins, your odds of winning crater off into nothing, and most people don't find being farmed for someone elses easy wins enjoyable.

Its the people who throw in the towel, who I find have the most potential to coordinate, and score wins against the premades. A little coordination, or a plan as simple as "Lets make the premade lose by all means neccessary" is often enough to get some coordination going, and ensure the premade team gets pinched, and punished for every move they make, for the entire duration of the match. Most of my wins against premades happen on teams with people openly whining in Alliance chat about their presence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archeron

Its the people who throw in the towel, who I find have the most potential to coordinate, and score wins against the premades. A little coordination, or a plan as simple as "Lets make the premade lose by all means neccessary" is often enough to get some coordination going, and ensure the premade team gets pinched, and punished for every move they make, for the entire duration of the match. Most of my wins against premades happen on teams with people openly whining in Alliance chat about their presence.

---

I don't contribute much to chat unless nobody else is providing input, in which case I'll bung in a compass direction when the new S-rank has apparently been overlooked. But I will make the exception pre-match when people are complaining about premades. I agree it can be successful. Why? Because most solo players regard premades as a legal cheat, and are primed to do something about it.

One particularly encouraging approach, once the premade has been identified, is to suggest we lay off the opposing team without the premade. On a good day, that team notices and understands the plan. Smush the premade team to limit their points, then duke it out with each other for the win.

Ah... small pleasures.