Inevitable Job Simplifications?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Sure, let me clarify.

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That's an interesting perspective. Personally I hate the ARPG model and it probably makes me of another time those days (this is probably why I hate all the combat systems of modern FF games with no exception), but well... I guess it'll boil down harder to a matter of tastes on that point. I personally thing that the game code is way more suited to the former than the latter though. It feels awful when the boss turns or moves out of position when you need to be tactically positioned for your rotation to work, but when it's about the tank or your team it's something that you can control and work upon as teamplay. When it's the boss without any warning, it gets really annoying at times.

Yeah, I actually kinda miss the tank defensive positionals of HW, where being hit in the back increased damaged and crits. Maybe it wasn't perfect, but tactically it was fun (accuracy wasnt though).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Like...I find MCH really fun. It's the ONLY Ranged that I like playing. BRD is frustrating with the feast or famine procs and priority system being all over the place, and DNC.......I just hate DNC with a passion.

MCH, on the other hand? The Job is fun, abilities feel impactful, there's a priority system but it's pretty understandable and feels good to execute, the burst feels satisfying and high paced, and the base rotation is there for any time you'd otherwise have less to do or be bored. It just works on so many levels. It's easily the best designed Ranged in the game right now now that Hypercharge has a charge system.

I'd even say MCH is the ONLY good Ranged Job in the game right now in terms of play and feel. It's the only one that I at all enjoy. The others I'm leveling in Frontlines because of how much I dislike them.

I'd say this is a case of "Understand what what you like is not universal, and some things need to be made that you won't like to appeal to others". I have no problem with BRD and DNC being Jobs I don't like, even though archer is one of my favorite class fantasy/archetypes in gaming and the fantasy genre. But BRD in this game is for players that aren't me. MCH is more for players like me. Everyone wins.

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MCH burst feels pathetic and spamming heat blast like a monkey for 20% of the time doesn't feel great to me, but I'm happy it does for you. Nothing in the kit feels cohesive with each other, you have tools that you just have to use on CD else they drift and it feels awful, but they don't talk in any meaningful way with either the gauge, the combo filler, or the job mechanics. The combo filler could be replaced by a simple pvp button since it doesnt even have branches like most, it's just a boring filler. Some abilities give battery but it feels completely random on what decided that they should or not, and queen is a just a fire and forget underwhelming button that still doesnt have a single AoE ability.

But that's right, all of this always boils down to subjective tastes. The thing you're missing though is the baggage that comes with MCH. They decided to strip down the job of all of its identity and what made it tick and defined it before, gave some of those good parts to other jobs (namely RDM, DNC), and kept all the awful crap that people were telling them to get rid of (the latency issues, the 1.5s GCDs, etc). It used to be the biggest burst job in the game, known for having to play piano and cram everything into it to get a VERY satisfying result, tempo-ed by downtime in between. It was a rigid clockwork job sure, and it definitely had clunk and problems, sure. But what doesn't sit well with me at all is that they decided to alienate a whole bunch of players by completely drastically changing the job identity and feel. If they wanted fixed combos and inner release spamm, they could have used it for a new rphys job instead as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by Valence

They decided to strip down the job of all of its identity and what made it tick and defined it before, gave some of those good parts to other jobs (namely RDM, DNC), and kept all the awful crap that people were telling them to get rid of (the latency issues, the 1.5s GCDs, etc). It used to be the biggest burst job in the game, known for having to play piano and cram everything into it to get a VERY satisfying result, tempo-ed by downtime in between. It was a rigid clockwork job sure, and it definitely had clunk and problems, sure. But what doesn't sit well with me at all is that they decided to alienate a whole bunch of players by completely drastically changing the job identity and feel. If they wanted fixed combos and inner release spamm, they could have used it for a new rphys job instead as far as I'm concerned.

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This I think is key with these job redesigns. It spits in the face of players who actually enjoyed playing the job. If the devs and community want more straightforward jobs, then make new jobs. If they feel the need to redesign jobs due to reasons, redesign in a way that is respectful of the original designs current job mains enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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You're using subjective terms. How does it "feel pathetic"? It feels fast paced and really good to me. 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3 with all those weaves in it feels great, like you're firing a machine gun or something, which is also how GNB feels with Continuation. Generally speaking, I don't like high APM Jobs, but I like MCH and GNB when they do it. Not only does it feed into the Job fantasy, it feels really smooth and fast pace.

I'm not sure what DOESN'T feel cohesive about it. You have several gadgets that have to recharge after use, and all of them hit hard and feel good to use. Drill has felt fantastic to hit since it was introduced. Honestly, the only thing that feels kind of stupid is the Battery Gauge since it doesn't really make a lot of sense that you generate "battery" by shooting things. They should just make Rook/Queen charge at a set rate, either CD based or a 1% per sec or something and let you decide when to use it, but either way. But that's honestly my only complaint about it. Queen hits hard and is always cool to get on the field. Though Queen (and DRK's Frey) are the only two that make me freak out on a Healer in fights when I see that "one person" still standing in the dangerous spot the boss is telegraphing before I realize it's not an actual party member, lol

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Originally Posted by Valence

They decided to strip down the job of all of its identity and what made it tick and defined it before, gave some of those good parts to other jobs (namely RDM, DNC), and kept all the awful crap that people were telling them to get rid of (the latency issues, the 1.5s GCDs, etc). It used to be the biggest burst job in the game, known for having to play piano and cram everything into it to get a VERY satisfying result, tempo-ed by downtime in between. It was a rigid clockwork job sure, and it definitely had clunk and problems, sure. But what doesn't sit well with me at all is that they decided to alienate a whole bunch of players by completely drastically changing the job identity and feel. If they wanted fixed combos and inner release spamm, they could have used it for a new rphys job instead as far as I'm concerned.

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Honestly, this is the one part I can somewhat agree with. They fixed the 1-2-3 not always triggering (which was kinda dumb), but not the Hypercharge or Wildfire (the latter of which they STILL haven't fixed), but I disagree they stripped its identity. Though I still miss the Reload and Quick Reload animations (I feel those are what they should use for stuff like Rassemble and love how they always made me think of Outlaw Star and Jean Starwind's Caster gun), the rest of the kit is still there. The 1-2-3 combo, the oGCD attacks, Wildfire, sprayandpray machine gun cone AOE (now with added Shotgun awesomeness at high levels - the single most fun ability in the game to me to press aside from possibly Double Down; pity it isn't used in single target fights...), and an automaton you can call for additional help (I just wish they were still more persistent, but I get the Devs are just moving away from persistent pets in general...and am honestly surprised SCH Faeries still exist given how hard the Devs have been moving that direction...)

So I DON'T agree they stripped MCH of what it was to be a MCH.

The part I agree with is that I don't think they should change Jobs out from under people, since no matter the Job, there are some people that enjoy them. They've done this with PLD (most recently), SMN, MCH, MNK, and with AST several times; to a lesser extent, they've done this with BRD (twice), NIN, SCH, DRK, and WAR...and probably others that I didn't realize, though other cases may be a bit more debatable.

To a point, classes change over time, and that's the nature of an ever-changing game, which most MMOs are. Compare basically any WoW class today to its Vanilla WoW version, and very few are even...recognizable. I'm honestly not sure ANY are. And in FFXIV, the only Jobs that haven't had significant changes are the ones released in 4.0 or later. And even then, they've had CHANGES, just RDM, GNB, DNC, RPR, and SGE haven't had gameplay changing ones yet (SAM is debatable owing to Kaiten; RDM still plays MOSTLY the same it did in SB and ShB, just with a somewhat faster rate of resource generation, DNC and GNB still play the same, and obviously RPR and SGE's only changes have been tuning, not gameplay)

...but when it's a huge change all at once - like Green Caller...er, I mean, "Summoner" - then it's more stark and more alienating, and why those should be new Jobs added OR, if it's a change to an old Job, a new Job should be added for that. For example, changing SMN to New SMN isn't terrible, the problem is, they just threw all the Green Mage components into the trash instead of introducing a GRM Job.

Modern MCH is fine, the problem is that old MCH was removed and replaced with it, instead of them adding Corsair or Musketeer or something for one and new MCH being the other.

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I guess what I most contest is when people insist that new versions are garbage when they aren't. Read any thread on SMN and you'll see people calling it garbage and even unfixable (which, itself, assumes it needs fixing in the first place). Instead of just saying that they don't like it and that they think they'd prefer something else. The latter I will never fault someone for, because different people like different things, and I think it is good for everyone to always keep that in mind. The new versions of PLD, SMN, and MCH are all fine. But it's fair to complain that their previous versions were removed rather than new ones introduced or the old ones re-introduced as new Jobs if the old Job HAD to be changed for its class fantasy/identity or something (old SMN wasn't really a "Summoner" by most fantasy definitions, much less most FF games)

I do agree in many of these cases that it's odd they didn't just add new Jobs. Like they could have taken Old SMN, removed the Egis and Demis, and the remnant of what was left in the old rotation could basically BE Green Mage, just give it some big CD for where the old Demis were and replace Egi-Assaults with something thematically appropriate and you basically have a new Caster Job with almost no Dev resources expended (not to mention it already fit in the 2 min burst window meta)

I don't think it's an insult or "spits in the face" of people. I think it's the Devs genuinely trying to make things work better. But I do think something is lost when it's done, at least the major changes. But almost all Jobs over the age of "since SB" have had this happen.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

You're using subjective terms. How does it "feel pathetic"? It feels fast paced and really good to me. 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3 with all those weaves in it feels great, like you're firing a machine gun or something, which is also how GNB feels with Continuation. Generally speaking, I don't like high APM Jobs, but I like MCH and GNB when they do it. Not only does it feed into the Job fantasy, it feels really smooth and fast pace.

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You're the one using subjective terms. I told you what my problem with it was. I don't like mindless spamm of buttons. I like having to align well thought out patterns or use my brain to settle priorities, which MCH used to be all about. Not that machinegun nonsense, which it all but feels like to me (probably very subjective). To me it feels like DRK edge of shadow spamm under delirium with a little more speed, and if you mean that DRK's delirium also feeds into a machinegun job fantasy and identity, then I don't know... I really don't know.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm not sure what DOESN'T feel cohesive about it. You have several gadgets that have to recharge after use, and all of them hit hard and feel good to use. Drill has felt fantastic to hit since it was introduced. Honestly, the only thing that feels kind of stupid is the Battery Gauge since it doesn't really make a lot of sense that you generate "battery" by shooting things. They should just make Rook/Queen charge at a set rate, either CD based or a 1% per sec or something and let you decide when to use it, but either way. But that's honestly my only complaint about it. Queen hits hard and is always cool to get on the field. Though Queen (and DRK's Frey) are the only two that make me freak out on a Healer in fights when I see that "one person" still standing in the dangerous spot the boss is telegraphing before I realize it's not an actual party member, lol

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1) How does hitting hard and "feeling good to use" have anything to do with feeling like a cohesive toolkit?
2) They don't actually hit that hard
3) Drill was like disneyland to me when it has been introduced: at first the magic is nice, and after a week it's faded off. Don't get me wrong, the skill animation is neat, we get to use that alexander robot skill, but I'm talking about mechanics here, not the visuals of the skill.
4) My thought on the matter is that they should have tied the battery gauge to Hypercharge, where dumping heat to recharge electricity actually makes a lot of sense

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Originally Posted by Renathras

They fixed the 1-2-3 not always triggering (which was kinda dumb)

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Are you for real? What was there even to fix?? That's the whole point of proc based jobs! Do you want to fix bard and dancer, or especially RDM that stole most of the design too while you're at it?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

but I disagree they stripped its identity. Though I still miss the Reload and Quick Reload animations (I feel those are what they should use for stuff like Rassemble and love how they always made me think of Outlaw Star and Jean Starwind's Caster gun), the rest of the kit is still there. The 1-2-3 combo, the oGCD attacks, Wildfire, sprayandpray machine gun cone AOE (now with added Shotgun awesomeness at high levels - the single most fun ability in the game to me to press aside from possibly Double Down; pity it isn't used in single target fights...), and an automaton you can call for additional help (I just wish they were still more persistent, but I get the Devs are just moving away from persistent pets in general...and am honestly surprised SCH Faeries still exist given how hard the Devs have been moving that direction...)

So I DON'T agree they stripped MCH of what it was to be a MCH.

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I am not speaking how MCH looks. It looks good. I'm speaking about how it feels MECHANICALLY.

1) It used to be a tight, high octane burst based job that lined up everything in it. It was about 40-45% of its total damage crammed into that burst window. The damage spike for the current burst is pitiful in comparison
2) It used to be proc based with actual patterns and priorities to think about, and ammo to use properly to prepare your bursts, it is not anymore.
3) It used to be a balancing act (heat), it's not anymore.
4) It used to provide party buffs like a rphys, it doesn't anymore.
5) WF used to compile everything inside, which offered a way more satisfying burst and skill expression that just the same GCD spammed 5 times.

( I have no idea how people manage to line up more than 3000 characters in those forums :c )

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Compare basically any WoW class today to its Vanilla WoW version, and very few are even...recognizable. I'm honestly not sure ANY are.

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I don't care about wow. I care about FF14.

What WoW does bad isn't an excuse for FF to do bad as well.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I guess what I most contest is when people insist that new versions are garbage when they aren't. Read any thread on SMN and you'll see people calling it garbage and even unfixable (which, itself, assumes it needs fixing in the first place).

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I'd never call anything unfixable. It's usually sqenix dropping the ball there, not me. I was hoping for the old versions to get fixed, but when something requires fixes, they prefer to nuke it out of the sky.

I actually hoped (hope is way too much of a word for it) that the modern MCH version of ShB was just a dumb base with not much to it that just waited a proof of concept to be expanded seriously upon in EW. Instead, we got almost nothing. Do you truly think that if sqenix keep the same pattern we'll get a more mechanically involved summoner? Good joke.

It even took them 4 years (without counting the 4 other years of HW and SB) to actually start tackling the latency issues with stacks. People were already talking about stacks on the FSH model as far back as Stormblood already! Meanwhile the devs were saying "we test jobs with simulated latency in local, they all play fine and we didn't see any problem with it!". That's this level of cluelesness that doesn't sit well with people as well.

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Originally Posted by Valence

( I have no idea how people manage to line up more than 3000 characters in those forums :c )

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If you edit your post, you can bypass the 3000 character limit.

I don't think the SB MCH was fluid, or even fun to play, and like the summoner today, some people used to love it, but theses people aren't a majority, and probably devs didn't like it either.
-> Having full reload to be 1-2-1 to make us able to quick reload just after to be 3-2-3 wasn't intuitive.

And maybe sad but true, but dev always got the last word on their games. If a class is unpopular change it is probably better than keeping it same.

Red Mage core spells follow the exact same pattern and yet it's a popular job.

Also I never liked that "democratic" argument of authority where the majority always decides, and the (supposed) minorities be damned. Fact of the matter actually, HW MCH was played quite a bit even though it was even more of a difficult mess to make sense of than SB MCH (which was more finicky, but way, way easier rotationally).