Is the "healing portion" of healers hitting a wall in EW?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

You're not really interested because it shows you're wrong and your points have no basis in reality, got it. Of course I'm sure you'd love to use this as a point if it somehow did...

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Nah, a few reasons:
I'm not interested because every single iota of evidence of the state of the present healers being damn near uniform in their DPS abilities shows had it not changed then, it would have changed by now anyway.
I'm fighting with the character limit, I can't elaborate on every point.
I don't really care about information in the past I can't verify for myself and I don't do "trust me, bro." on stuff like that.
and finally, you're basically peak "why I stopped bothering to engage in these conversations", and why I'm probably stopping after this post.

Even when I try to give you good faith replies - you're still harping away on something that I literally told you was a guess 3 posts later. You're trying to get me to change my opinion what, because of how things were 5 years ago? I get it. You're big mad they changed SCH. You don't think they should have. Whatever. It's like you think you have this profound "gotcha" moment or something, when the real, simplistic reality is I just. don't. care. what. happened. 2. xpacs. ago. There exists no point you can make, no phrase you can utter, no sentence you can write that is ever going to get me to agree multidotting classes are fun. I hate them. I hate them as an entire MMO concept. I won't play them. I got bard to 90 for the xpac and dropped it like it was made of plutonium. You have no idea how much I want to love Bard as a DPS main. I love everything conceptually about bardic classes, still hate it. I will always relish, literally savor, the death of any multidotting class for any other playstyle, even if that playstyle is 1 button for damage.

Did I make my position clear enough for you?

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You are never ever getting that in this game. They've said so many times.

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How many times do I have to repeat myself? I understand. they. are. being. obstinate. about. this. That doesn't mean I'm giving up.

My past experience has been that outside of that situation, you're generally running with people who don't necessarily know the fights and as such, far more random spot healing is required anyway. I rarely "don't have fun" playing in lower tier content.

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Well I guess it's unfortunate the developers disagree with you and still see it that way based on its newest PvP iteration being almost offensively DoT based and even reusing Miasma's debuff icon along with giving it a new AoE called "mummification" lol

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Mummification would actually be a scholarly concept. It relates to long dead civi.. you know what? Kinda just done with you anyway. You will get no further replies from me, if you feel like expending further effort, go ahead.

...All of this, and more, just says:
"Yes," to the OP's question.

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Originally Posted by Atma

I feel that argument works right up until it's your preferred/favorite class conceptually that they change in a way you don't like.

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And yet that's exactly what happened to several jobs. How many jobs have changed from their original design over the years?

DRK used to have Dark Arts to augment their skills in a very similar manner to Eukrasia only to be turned into WAR with oGCD.
SCH had DoTs all the way up until ShB. It got changed to be a 1 Nuke/DoT job, at the cost of everyone that liked old SCH.
AST used to have different card effects and time magic.
SMN has completely changed from being a DoT oriented DPS with pets to a simple job focused on using pets for burst damage.

There have been plenty of changes that have come to the detriment of people that like how jobs used to play so what good justification is there to alienate those players? I liked SMN, couldn't play it all that well but I respected those that could. Now, I feel it to be almost as dull as healers.

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Nothing about Scholar screams "miasma and festering pestilence" to me

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SCH's entire questline is literally curing a disease. You generally tend to pick up a thing or 2 about pestilence when undertaking that line of work, just saying.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

And yet that's exactly what happened to several jobs. How many jobs have changed from their original design over the years?

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Oh I'm not saying things never change - don't get me wrong. I get that's a part of life, but all I'm saying is look, I'm just one person arguing for my own personal opinions. Imagine the combined weight of every single healer in the game coming to either argue for or against the changes.

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DRK used to have Dark Arts to augment their skills in a very similar manner to Eukrasia only to be turned into WAR with oGCD.

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I would very much agree that DRK is now far too close to WAR. At least in the healer space, there is some differentiation (if not a lot) within the healer side and/or overall class mechanics. DRK really got the short end of the stick this xpac/rework, especially lolblation.

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SCH had DoTs all the way up until ShB. It got changed to be a 1 Nuke/DoT job, at the cost of everyone that liked old SCH.

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That came with aligning it to the other healer roles. But this is more about thematic than necessarily raw ability. Just as WHM "grows out" of the Druid motif (FYI, I actually am aligned with you on this one. The light spells look really nice, but on the same token I'd prefer they had just continued their elemental focus), I kind of feel like SCH "outgrows" the disease-spreader motif. I know that yes, we still have bio, but I'm really surprised that hasn't changed by now.

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AST used to have different card effects and time magic.

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I still miss the original, but it was just balance-fishing so I understand why it needed to change... There was a clear-cut "winner" to the exclusion of all else. The present iteration can't say I care for. I know ASTs are concerned about the rework, honestly for some reason it feels like the class they're never going to get right.

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SMN has completely changed from being a DoT oriented DPS with pets to a simple job focused on using pets for burst damage.

There have been plenty of changes that have come to the detriment of people that like how jobs used to play so what good justification is there to alienate those players?

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Summoner I'm torn on but I don't know if that's because of my general distaste for classes that "build up" to something over a very long period of time. I definitely feel like "something's missing." It's definitely not dots, but there is something within the redesign that's just not quite making it click yet.

Should they change classes that drastically... probably not. I think they wanted to make summoner more of a 'summoner', it's just lackluster.

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SCH's entire questline is literally curing a disease. You generally tend to pick up a thing or 2 about pestilence when undertaking that line of work, just saying.

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Yeah I understand that, but y'know... still doesn't make me want to become a plague doctor.

I dont want to offend people but bringing Yoshida up as a source of healer knwoledge is none sense. Yoshida made clear he has no clue at all how healer play or what is the reallity in PF. Yoshida thinks still to this day healers should heal but everything in the game promotes DPS as if he has NO CLUE ABOUT THE BATTLE DESIGN on this matter. Healing is not hard nor difficult. I played healer in many games and FF14 healers are the "1 Button you are win" healer of all in MMO today. And thats not a comliment.

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Originally Posted by Atma

Yeah I understand that, but y'know... still doesn't make me want to become a plague doctor.

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But I wanna be a plague doctor :(

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Originally Posted by Atma

My stance is, to reiterate, that the game's content should provide enough for healers to do that they *do not have time to manage* an in-depth DPS system.

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This is impossible to do.

They can (and really should) significantly increase the amount of healing needed. Harder hitting boss autos, more frequent raidwides and all that. But even if they do this, they have to design around the average group at min ilv progressing a fight. This sort of group is worlds apart from a BiS optimized team with planned mitigation and co-heal communication. So the skilled and geared team is going to be doing a lot of dps even in a situation where the new player team is spamming heals in prog.
This is especially true in ff14 where 25% of the group is always healers. In a game like WoW they can drop healers as the group learns a fight. We can't.

And there's the problem. Healing is backwards. The more skilled you become at dps, the more damage you do and the more engaging it is to have a indepth rotation and uptime planning flow perfectly on a long fight. The more skilled you become at healing, the less you get to do and the less engaging it becomes.

Since there is always going to be downtime when you master the class, even if there's more damage to heal, we want something to fill that downtime. It's not hard to understand. It doesn't even affect the average healer, they can just spam heals. But the role should reward you for mastering it, not punish you.

So, increase the damage we have to heal AND give us more interesting dps. It needs to be both.

Everytime i read the title of this thread i read "Healing potion" and then start missing the good old days when they were a thing.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

And yet that's exactly what happened to several jobs. How many jobs have changed from their original design over the years?

DRK used to have Dark Arts to augment their skills in a very similar manner to Eukrasia only to be turned into WAR with oGCD.
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After having played SGE pretty extensively (former SCH) Dark Arts could work again. It's main 2 problems were:

1) It was an entire GCD, not a half one like Eukrasia
2) It cost WAY too much mana. You were burning mana on DA as well as Mana on whatever you were using with little to no way to recover it.

Fix both of those two things and it would be viable again.

It cost a ton of mana but DA > Dark Passenger blinded foes which was good mitigation but that combined with DA > Dark Dance (Parry up) was amazing mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Atma

I will always relish, literally savor, the death of any multidotting class for any other playstyle, even if that playstyle is 1 button for damage

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I will always relish, literally savor, the fact that you are never ever getting your awful 20+ year old boomer MMO healer attrition gameplay in this game. There exists no point you can make, no phrase you can utter, no sentence you can write that is ever going to get me to agree with your outdated ideas on what healers should be in this game. I literally do not care about your "h-healers should a-always be healing! I-I'm not giving up on my outdated MMO ideals because DPS buttons on healers are icky!" especially when you really, REALLY seem like you have absolutely no understanding of how these jobs play in higher level content or honestly how anything plays in anything that isn't casual content.

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It relates to long dead civi.. you know what? Kinda just done with you anyway. You will get no further replies from me, if you feel like expending further effort, go ahead.

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Like the long dead civilization of Nym that was ended by the Tonberry Plague and how SCH's entire questline is about the Scholars worked endlessly to find a cure... meaning that it still thematically fits SCH, along with the fact that SCH's ShB DoT is literally named Biolysis... so it's still apart of SCH's theme?

I accept your concession, thank you.