Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Indeed – and it's only Endwalker that frames them as "eternally trapped and conscious within Zodiark" and in need of being let out.

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Actually, Endwalker doesn't frame them as that. There's one guy wanting out, sure, but everyone else is basically lamenting 'we put everything on the line, why isn't this working'. Which I can absolutely understand from my own life; it really sucks to put your all into something and then see it failing. We're also seeing them at a real low point, so it's impossible to extrapolate back to guess the overall mood of those souls at a time that was less dire.

I think what happened is that we saw people in a situation that some of us read as 'trapped', and then therefore wanted to free them because that's the natural response to seeing someone trapped. But in that point, we only had a conversation with one person: Hythlodaeus. And he seemed pretty chill about it all, really; he made his choice and never once regretted it. In fact, it's an outlook reflected by the Watcher, still believing in the heavy decision they made. Granted, both of them were sample sizes of one, but in a character-driven story, 'the testimony of one dude with a name' is kinda the most valuable way to gauge how you're supposed to feel about the group they're representing.

I don't think they were trapped, I think they almost all wanted to be there. it's just that they were hoping for a better result than Fantastic Dan and the Reaper Man trying to jack their Megazord.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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Fair point, if that is how it is phrased. I suppose even more then, the difference between what we pictured in Shadowbringers and what we now know from Endwalker is a shift from "the whole thing is tragic because they wouldn't even be revivable anyway" to "actually it would have worked, but they still shouldn't be doing it because the sacrifices volunteered to be sacrifices so others could live, and switching them out for the things that are alive because of their sacrifice is direly missing the point".

The souls on the moon before Hythlodaeus express a desire to either return to life or return to the star. I have no idea how that could be interpreted as anything other than trapped, especially given that was a fundamental part of their belief system. They may have willingly sacrificed themselves to Zodiark, but I doubt when they did so they realized they would be committing to a 12k year purgatory within him. Incidentally, Hythlodaeus himself uses the word "purgatory".

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I don't think there was any indication that Ancients were trying to "eliminate sorrow" in the manner that the people of the Plenty were, especially not when the very creation magic around which their society revolved was the source of many problems and as long it continued to be used they would inevitably invite strife into their lives in ways both big and small.

That might have changed in the aftermath of the Final Days, but we'll never know because they were cut off before they could even start with the debatably unnecessary sacrifices. And no, I don't take the testimony of those two Ancients Venat speaks to as indicative of the whole. There were likely many who just wanted to spare the souls of their loved ones from languishing as part of Zodiark for eternity.

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https://i.imgur.com/89s7DIT.jpg

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Temperamental Spirit:
We and the star were fulfilled...
Wanted for naught, mourned for naught...
So why... Why did it have to end!?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The souls on the moon before Hythlodaeus express a desire to either return to life or return to the star. I have no idea how that could be interpreted as anything other than trapped, especially given that was a fundamental part of their belief system. They may have willingly sacrificed themselves to Zodiark, but I doubt when they did so they realized they would be committing to a 12k year purgatory within him. Incidentally, Hythlodaeus himself uses the word "purgatory".

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Yep. If nothing else, when with the Scions willingly sacrificing themselves only to come back a few minutes later I can't say I care much for the idea that the Ancients should have been content to just sit around inside of Zodiark. Especially when the only reason Zodiark was conjured forth in the first place ended up being due to Venat's refusal to share the information she had of the impending Final Days.

I imagine no shortage of Ancients gave themselves to Zodiark for the sake of their loved ones. There's nothing inherently selfish about that - and certainly, I doubt they would be pleased to find that their loved ones were then brutally subjected to genocide by some nutter masquerading as a 'supreme deity'.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yep. If nothing else, when with the Scions willingly sacrificing themselves only to come back a few minutes later I can't say I care much for the idea that the Ancients should have been content to just sit around inside of Zodiark.

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The difficulty there is that the Scions were able to be revived because the purpose of their sacrifice – supplying the aether to make Ultima Thule aetherially tangible enough for us to traverse it – was complete. Their aether was supplanted by Emet and Hyth's creation magic, and so they could safely be returned.

The ancients sacrificed into Zodiark (or equivalent aether, apparently) needed to remain in place until Zodiark's purpose was complete, and aside of any debate into whether they could have or not, the ancients did not achieve that. They may have just intended to leave Zodiark in place permanently if they couldn't figure out the base cause of the Final Days.

I also have to wonder if – given that we know Hydaelyn was powered by the souls as well as corporeal aether of her summoners – this logically must have been happening with Zodiark as well. Are prayers enough to sustain him or is he (by design or necessity) also slowly consuming the souls of the sacrifices to power that planet-wide shield? Would he eventually need more sacrifices to "keep the shield battery charged"?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The difficulty there is that the Scions were able to be revived because the purpose of their sacrifice – supplying the aether to make Ultima Thule aetherially tangible enough for us to traverse it – was complete. Their aether was supplanted by Emet and Hyth's creation magic, and so they could safely be returned.

The ancients sacrificed into Zodiark (or equivalent aether, apparently) needed to remain in place until Zodiark's purpose was complete, and aside of any debate into whether they could have or not, the ancients did not achieve that. They may have just intended to leave Zodiark in place permanently if they couldn't figure out the base cause of the Final Days.

I also have to wonder if – given that we know Hydaelyn was powered by the souls as well as corporeal aether of her summoners – this logically must have been happening with Zodiark as well. Are prayers enough to sustain him or is he (by design or necessity) also slowly consuming the souls of the sacrifices to power that planet-wide shield? Would he eventually need more sacrifices to "keep the shield battery charged"?

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i think hes slowly consuming them but since he was supplied with a ludicrouse amount of souls its gonna take a while for them to be completely devoured.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I also have to wonder if – given that we know Hydaelyn was powered by the souls as well as corporeal aether of her summoners – this logically must have been happening with Zodiark as well. Are prayers enough to sustain him or is he (by design or necessity) also slowly consuming the souls of the sacrifices to power that planet-wide shield? Would he eventually need more sacrifices to "keep the shield battery charged"?

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Lauront has made some detailed posts on the subject in the past from what I recall, so I'll have to go and look for them when I have more time. With that said, it was outlined during one of the recent Live Letters - the 'clarification' one, I believe - that Zodiark was protecting the souls within him and unlike with Hydaelyn, did not opt to burn through any of them.

It lends credence to the idea, I suppose, that not only was Zodiark exceedingly powerful but he was able to shield not only Etheirys in his Sundered state but all the souls held within him as well.

It's always interesting to see how people work with incomplete information. Most of our knowledge about Amaurot comes from two time points. One is on Elpis, prior to the Final Days, and the second is in Amaurot itself, while the Convocation is deliberating over whether or not to summon Zodiark.

There's a lot of missing information. Namely:

• Who was the index transformation that triggered the Final Days, and what were the circumstances around it? (i.e. Who was their Kahlzahl?)
• What discussions exactly took place between Venat's group of confidantes and the Convocation?
• What was the circumstances around Azem's departure from the Convocation, and what ultimately happened to them?
• What are the drawbacks to using Zodiark's powers? What are his upkeep energy costs over time and how were they planned to be paid? What happens to the additional souls that are sacrificed to him after his initial summoning, including the third set that the Convocation planned on making?
• What was the societal impact of being tempered by him, and were people still compos mentis to make decisions about sacrificing their lives to him?

As someone interested in lore, I'm actually much more interested in seeing the answers to these questions than I am about having the opportunity to pass a judgement. And I suspect the reason why some of these points are as yet unanswered is because of Pandaemonium and Myths, which is why you can't just simply fill in the blanks with your own headcanon.

What was said about the souls in zodiark from that interview was

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A:*Souls are also made of aether, and she had used so much aether that even her soul was gone. Zodiark absorbed those who were sacrificed and was still able to maintain their souls within, whereas Hydaelyn did not have the leeway to preserve the souls of the summoners, including that of Venat herself. This difference was because Venat’s group was a very small minority compared to the group that had summoned Zodiark based on the Convocation’s decision. Venat’s soul, which was the last to remain, was used up in the trial against the Warrior of Light and their allies.

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Found from the posting here from the LL

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5861039