SAM players are quitting

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Originally Posted by YukiB

You don't grey parse because you don't use Kaiten on the right skills. You lose a few percent DPS.

Oh hey, didn't you say earlier that SAM is and always was a baby job and losing Kaiten didn't make it any easier? Yet here you are saying that using Kaiten improperly would cause groups to fail enrage timers. Hmm.

Do you think about your posts before you write them?

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A few percent if you're not performing which if you're "doing what you want" freestyle dpsing is going to drop you into grey.

Which means being dead weight given your whole job, your whole meaning for existing is to put out ADPS.

You don't give Raid buffs
You don't tank
Nor heal
Nor offer utility

You offer raw dps in spades and if you're right down the list because "nobody tells me how to play"

Then you are wasting 7 other people's time and frankly, expecting a carry because you had one job and failed at it.

I don't think choice is really even the concern here - if it was just a bar that filled up and automatically buffed your next weaponskill, sure, you lose "choice", but more importantly, you lose control.

Kaiten was basically a non-choice if playing right, but that just means it was part of the rotation, and since it had a kenki cost, that made kenki relevant to the rotation - taking away control is arguably just as bad as taking away choice.

I was going to make a comparison to MCH if Reassemble just procced randomly instead of having control over it, but SAM would actually be way worse than that since the timing is dependent on sen, which you can't even build without using weaponskills. At least with MCH you could just wait for Drill to come off cooldown maybe - on SAM you'd just end up buffing Hakaze or something if you didn't already have 3 sen, or maybe if you did have 3 sen but the gauge wasn't quite full, it'd be worth it to literally just stand there not using any weaponskills so you can use it on Iaijutsu. Much rather just have Kaiten back, especially since button bloat was apparently a mistranslation for action bloat, which is to say APM, which removing Kaiten had basically no impact on.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There's a marked difference in "The dragoon delays it because of the party buff window" and "It's literally wrong to use Kaiten on anything but Iaijutsu and Ogi". When we speak of "Choice" in game design, it's not about whether the player is initiating an action, it's about whether there's a meaningful divergence of outcomes from those actions.

If your only outcome selections are Pass/Fail, it's not a choice, it's a formality.

Reapers have "The choice" of not alternating their powered up weapon skills.
Black mages have "The choice" of only using ice magic.
Healers have "The choice" of never using damage actions.

See how little that actually flies?

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I see that those are all choices with varying degrees of impact on DPS.

I'm not arguing that players should ever NOT use Kaiten by the way, but it was a skill that required player agency to use, and thus provided some small amount of skill expression and gauge maintenance which is now lacking.

Imagine if they made it so RPR could ONLY alternate their gauge skills. The end result would be the same, but the job would be slightly easier to play and lose a little bit of flavor. Imagine if they removed Blizzard IV from BLM and made the umbral hearts passive. The end result would be the same (actually slightly more potency per GCD) but the job would be slightly easier to play and lose a little bit of flavor. That ability to make decisions, and mistakes, makes jobs more fun.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

A few percent if you're not performing which if you're "doing what you want" freestyle dpsing is going to drop you into grey.

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So the choice to not use Kaiten is not the sole factor in determining a grey parse, but execution of the whole rotation. Thank you for proving my point.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

I see that those are all choices with varying degrees of impact on DPS.

I'm not arguing that players should ever NOT use Kaiten by the way, but it was a skill that required player agency to use, and thus provided some small amount of skill expression and gauge maintenance which is now lacking.

Imagine if they made it so RPR could ONLY alternate their gauge skills. The end result would be the same, but the job would be slightly easier to play and lose a little bit of flavor. Imagine if they removed Blizzard IV from BLM and made the umbral hearts passive. The end result would be the same (actually slightly more potency per GCD) but the job would be slightly easier to play and lose a little bit of flavor. That ability to make decisions, and mistakes, makes jobs more fun.



So the choice to not use Kaiten is not the sole factor in determining a grey parse, but execution of the whole rotation. Thank you for proving my point.

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And it still would have agency as a Baked in passive with a "Kaiten ready" effect

You still get to choose what weaponskill you press to put the Kaiten effect on

The difference is, you'd press one less button, it would just be more linear in when you get to use it, much like the BLM Polyglots for Xenoglossy and Ruin.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There's a marked difference in "The dragoon delays it because of the party buff window" and "It's literally wrong to use Kaiten on anything but Iaijutsu and Ogi". When we speak of "Choice" in game design, it's not about whether the player is initiating an action, it's about whether there's a meaningful divergence of outcomes from those actions.

If your only outcome selections are Pass/Fail, it's not a choice, it's a formality.

Reapers have "The choice" of not alternating their powered up weapon skills.
Black mages have "The choice" of only using ice magic.
Healers have "The choice" of never using damage actions.

See how little that actually flies?

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Its amusing that you are highlighting effectively exactly what YukiB is stating, yet are trying to prove the opposite.

Each of those classes all have "The choice" to improve on how they play and be better at optimizing their damage...

SAM had a chunk of 'that choice' removed.

This isn't stating that the use of kaiten was 'hard'. But it was a conscious choice, just one aspect of the SAM kit that kept the player engaged. It was removed. The pieces of the kit you needed to use effectively has been simplified.

Adding any color of the kaiten effect to Iaijutsu automatically... effectively makes the rotation less engaging.


Are you arguing from the perspective that SAM was just too hard for higher end raiders and needed to be simplified for them, because kaiten use was too demanding?

Hitting your differing moves IS a choice. Otherwise, Why don't we just hit one button that executes everything that needs to go off so the player can simply pay attention to the fight mechanics? Not to mention, outside of Ultimates... any SAM player could get pretty any content done without using kaiten and wouldn't be kicked by any but the most anal of groups. Not saying this would be good practice but simply that the content isn't hard enough to be that strict.

The point of having augment style moves like Kaiten is to add slight complexity to a class, and this does nothing to mention that kaiten importance was far more detailed in that it also connected Sen and Kenki build up, made kenki management actually a thing, visually connected our moves in a pleasing way, and was a direct engagement of the player in creating large hits with a immediate payoff which was a direct psychologically pleasing flow of actions.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

Its amusing that you are highlighting effectively exactly what YukiB is stating, yet are trying to prove the opposite.

Each of those classes all have "The choice" to improve on how they play and be better at optimizing their damage...

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Let me tell you why this logic doesn't work.

Without Kaiten, you still have immense amounts of "Choice" to improve your DPS. You've only lost a sliver.

You have six different base GCD actions you can use. In a boss fight lasting approximately 10 minutes, or 600 seconds, you have, about, 240 slots for GCDs. 270ish with the speed bonus, and every amount in between depending on when you apply and how often you keep up your speed bonus.

So at the basic level, you've already got 270 * 6 or 1620 choices to make. Multiply that by (240 * 6) and that's where you sit without any haste bonus at all. Double that amount if we include damage bonus. Double it once more if we have a run with no combo actions.

Double it again if we have a run with half of the actions used perform a combo bonus.

Double it once more if only the first 120 actions use combo bonuses.

Double it again for the run where you use Kenki. Double it again for the one you don't.

Look at all these optimization choices you can still make. I'm not even a tenth of the way through potential choices you could make and Kaiten isn't even in the a twinkle in your eye.

Oh, lets not forget the run where you hit zero GCDs. Bold strategy, but who am I to argue with choice?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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You're right, but all you're pointing out is that almost every action an optimized player takes is a non-choice.

The problem isn't exactly the removal of the non-choice so much as it is the ramifications of that removal.

Not having Kaiten as part of the rotation makes the rotation easier, slower (removed an OGCD from the rotation), and feel worse as a whole.

The bigger problem is that because Kaiten is no longer part of the rotation, kenki management is no longer necessary whatsoever. Sure, it wasn't hard before, but "not hard" is very different than "completely unnecessary".

There's no longer a reason to even know how much kenki you have except in preparation for burst windows - just spam Shinten and you're good. Before at least you had to make sure to have enough for Kaiten while also being mindful to not overcap from Ikishoten when that's coming up.

Kaiten was a non-choice if playing optimally discounting edge-cases, but that non-choice was still a lot better than Shinten spam.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Without Kaiten, you still have immense amounts of "Choice" to improve your DPS. You've only lost a sliver.

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See, this is the simple point at which we disagree at. I certainly am not suggesting there aren't other aspects of SAM game play that can't be worked on and improved. I'm just saying that kaiten played a more central roll then the example you brought forth. I believe kaiten connected the SAM kit together more then you clearly give credit for. It wasn't just a simple GCD you hit for "MORE DAMAGE!!". It gave purpose to kenki and connected sen and kenki generation.

The logic does work. We just don't agree on the importance of kaiten.

And all said and done, your argument doesn't refute the point I brought forth in the first place. It simply attempts to argue that the removal of kaiten was non-consequential and there are plenty of other avenues in SAM game play in which players can work on and make different choices about... Which doesn't at all disprove what I stated or at all dismiss that kaiten, before 6.1, was just one more area of engagement in the very subject of what we are discussing, not to re-mention the factor that I believe kaiten was a more integral GCD then your average move like shinten and you give credit to(which is only highlighted by the SAM outcry as to the change and the current situation SAM is in).

You are effectively proving yourself wrong in your own posts by your own logic, but are simply dismissing the situation by saying 'kaiten wasn't that big of a deal, you still have differing methods to stumbling through your rotation.'.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Kaiten was a non-choice if playing optimally discounting edge-cases, but that non-choice was still a lot better than Shinten spam.

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You see, that's actually the funny part.

I don't really disagree with you. There's some nuance and detail I could argue with you, but that doesn't really pertain to whether or not Kaiten should come back. I've said it elsewhere - This is purely a gamefeel issue. I can easily see them compromising with having Kaiten give the auto-crit, and frankly, that's probably what will happen.

Another potency shift, Kaiten returns, Kaiten just makes the next weaponskill auto-crit.

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Originally Posted by FrogBiscuit

You are effectively proving yourself wrong in your own posts by your own logic, but are simply dismissing the situation by saying 'kaiten wasn't that big of a deal, you still have differing methods to stumbling through your rotation.'.

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The "point" you made was that the non-choices I provided, the "Pass / fail" mechanics, were actually choices for players to make to improve their damage.

They are not.

They are no more a choice than pushing any GCD in the first place. Literally any GCD being pressed is better than not pressing any. That isn't a choice. That is a pass/fail.

This continues further - It's better to press a combo-starter GCD than literally any GCD at random. That isn't a choice. That is a pass / fail.

This continues further - It is better to complete a full combo than only pressing combo starter GCDs. That isn't a choice. That is a pass / fail.

This continues further - It is better to complete a buffing combo before using a damage combo. That isn't a choice. That is a pass / fail.

Pass / fails are not what we call choices in game design. They are basic knowledge checks that you need only solve once, and after that you already have the answer, and therefore there is no choice in the matter. There is a right answer, and there is a wrong answer.

Kaiten falls under pass/fail. There is a right answer (Sword Draw enhance) and a whole lotta wrong answers (Using it with literally any non-Draw).

So in terms of optimization to improve your damage, Kaiten is already inconsequential, because where you use it is predetermined in almost all cases, and I use "Almost all" because you could make the argument that "I only have 20 Kenki, there's only time for one OGCD slot, and the only GCD I can press is Hakaze, and the boss is about to die / enrage right NOW" and that is...technically correct, and if you want to take that victory, by all means.

And don't take this as me insulting Kaiten. Most things in this game are pass / fail. They provide structure and handrails for players to follow.

I don't hold Life Surge in higher regard than Kaiten, nor Reassemble. I have nothing but apathy towards basically every physical DPS's repertoire of weaponskills, because they almost all fall under the same breadth of use despite their animation differences and their names, and I have nothing but active disdain for basically every weaponskill combo in the game.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

• Taking away Kaiten didn't change SAM into a different playstyle
• They took one button away and spread the potency across your kit. It never ever was a big brain job
• But acting like Kaiten was the straw? That singular button? Come on folks...that's hardly some amazing ceiling when you got NINs going at their rotation like a concert pianist.
• Ya'll just need to stop conning yourselves into thinking SAM was ever anything else.

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Critiquing Samurai's difficulty? Kaiten meaningless?
Brainless design gameplay? Lets see your creditability...

• You don't main Samurai...
• You don't have max level Samurai...
• You done no high-end content on Samurai...

You done none of the above, barely cleared Savage content as it is to bash a Job for over 10 posts in this singular thread... Note, you practically insulted every Samurai by basically saying that it takes no skill. It's like me saying Bard has no depth as I only took the Bard to Guildhest. With all due respect, Stfu.

I know plenty SAM friends who quit, rerolled, and I even see dediated parsers who used to main SAM, rerolling to something else. 6.1 negatively impacted the job, end of story. If you missed the memo? " Click Here ".

To discredit all of it so easily with such lack of acknowledgement like it's nothing... when it means so much... or even everything to so many... With all due respect, take your Simping opinion based on 0 experience of our Job and I ask kindly for you and people alike,... to Stfu.

You can have an opinion, but for the love of God... can it not be a flaming pile of crap regurgitated from this place called " I don't play Samurai btw ", that would actually make my day.