The story is great, but it blatantly gets in the way of the rest of the game

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

They went in expecting it to be exactly (or mostly) like any other MMO that doesn't have a heavy story focus. If you can't see why that's an issue, I don't know what to tell you.

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So they went in with a reasonable expectation that it would be a similar to every other MMO out there experience? I think you might be missing the issue.

I don't necessarily think the story should be decoupled from everything but you sure as hell shouldn't have to slog through the 80 post ARR MSQ to unlock the first expansion and 3 jobs. SE needs to clean up the ARR questing experience more than removing 13% of the quests, it needs to be 30%+. There are a lot of drawn out plot points that can be simplified, there are a ton of quests that just don't need to exist anymore. I understand in the ARR times they needed to pad out the MSQ, especially in 2.1-2.3 since the things that happen can be condensed to a couple of quests, and nowadays it should be. In my opinion you should legitimately be able to watch the cutscenes and get from completion of 2.0 to start of HW in an afternoon.

I think the same can be said of every expansions x.1-x.5 patch cycle as well. It is an interesting story to tell, but at this point, it doesn't need to take months to complete.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

We must be reading completely different posts then, because reality is at odds with your view. Are there weirdly obsessed people? Of course there are, but they're a small group, relatively speaking, they exist in every fandom, not just here, and it's disingenuous to imply otherwise. If you think that the majority of people want to drive those who don't love everything about the game away, then that is a personal failing on your part. Many people, such as myself, have expressed our own problems with the game on these forums multiple times, so we clearly don't blindly support everything about it, not to mention more new players--->new players enjoy game--->more money--->game continues on for years to come. It's a win-win situation.

Further, I've also expressed my annoyance in the past regarding those who don't treat Sprouts decently, because I can't stand that sort of elitism. If what you were saying were true, I and others would be doing the exact opposite. I only take issue with those who come to a game that is heavily story based and insist it shouldn't be. That is lit "expecting the game to cater to you", and I don't know how you can argue otherwise in any sort of good faith.

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It wasn't you who were being weird about this, there were a few posts that were not constructive, and just one sentence. Go play something else. It has been happening possibly for while now, in many threads where someone doesn't like for example the summoner changes and were sad to see their dots be taken they mentioned that it was what they enjoyed about the class. Of course there were similar people saying go play something else if you don't like it. There was nothing else said. Just that and the people disperse like a cloud after their contribution of just don't play this game it isn't for you. That did help the op who was expressing they would be sad to see their class changed in such a massive way and that they would have to get use to the new one, but they were worried what other classes they enjoy playing may also be changed in such a way. Sure telling someone maybe this game isn't for you may need to be said to some who may have sunk cost because god its hard to leave things and not realize their as bad as they were. It is like a friend who wont get out an abusive relationship, so it isn't bad to tell people if they legitimately hate everything about the game don't force it on yourself, but this is not where these people are coming from they just pump and dump the edgy one liners and never return.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

Haukke Manor was meant to be another display of the Ascians' nefarious manipulations - the only reason that women ended up a murderous voidsent was because they sent her down that path. It was never meant to be a mustache-twirling, "I burned down an orphanage and drowned a sack of puppies, and now I'll blow up Ul'Dah, I'm so eeeevil" situation. If that's what you think it should have been for it to be "important", we'll just have to disagree.

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It was really a bad example, I know it would be something hard to remove. I am just a bit sad because I wanted it to be given more time. I kind of liked the spooky atmosphere and the lead up besides the flaky individuals who thought they knew something, but 'ooops' I was mistaken thing that happens alot. Until finally you get the third person to speak up who knew the exact place where to find the evidence and the eyeball that would inevitably lead you to where you wished to go. It wasn't just that one instance. It is when that happens constantly. I was feeling like I was being misled at every turn on purpose just to have to extra quests. Go to this guy he knows where you need to go. No he doesn't he tells me the wrong things possibly on purpose. Sure later some fetch quests become very important later.

But I honestly did not like going to someone being told "I don't know anything, buuuut I do know someone who might. Please get me 7 flowers and I'll tell you heh heh" I think the worst was the women lying about the 'elementals' tell her she couldn't speak to the ala mihgans in quarrymill. Just so you have to go back and forth like playing telephone. If only I could use this excuse to not help everyone in Eorzea. They took many quests out and wish to find a list because it was so much longer. Part of me is sad to see them go, because there were some silly world building. I am a bit torn because I like the story, and enjoy learning more about it. I think I was just getting very overwelmed.

I will still never enjoy getting grandma her millions of flowers but the story around it is not what I have a problem with. Handing out pretzels, handing out uniforms, handing out cookies, handing out tea to little ala mihgo so they can spit on you and than later the young kid tries to kill you. I know he has a redemption arc, but I would have been more happy with a little less doing everything. Post stormblood does this well. You actually see people doing things, you play them through the echo visions. It is amazing. It isn't just someone telling you "yeah the scions are helping I sware, now go do exactly what we were suppose to be doing."

It was sitting there picking up rocks that each took a while, and that the game spawns fates and high level hunt targets next to the locations you need to go. It wasn't just getting grandma flowers it was piling frustrations of being treated poorly by the many character in the game. I may feel differently when playing through in japanese. My partner really loved the whole thing. After hearing the difference in personality for minfilia and y'shtola between the two some of my frustration may have been a lost in translation kind of thing. Maybe everyone really weren't talking down to you in old english.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

I'm a little miffed that I need to repeat myself here, but the devs only put the story skip (very reluctantly) on the store because they know there would be some people who don't care about the story and just want to play with friends. I'm sure higher ups in SE also pushed for it because they want money, but the FFXIV devs genuinely are proud of what they made and want people to experience it as intended. Why wouldn't they? A few issues I have with story beats here and there aside, they've made something good, and they should be proud of it. It isn't some tinfoil hat conspiracy as you claim, and I say that as someone who most certainly isn't an optimist - realist, more like.

If the devs "disrespected their story" as you say, they would just toss it all, focus less on it, make it so you can do it in any disjointed order, not make call backs to older content ("hey, remember when such and such happened?"), etc. So, in other words... the exact opposite of your assertions.

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This is fair. It was just one line of thought that may or may not have been true. I know square doesn't care about it. They just care about the money making. As seen with FF15 they will quickly abandon and jump ship whenever they could. Also taking the poor lead writer and throwing him on a separate project. I do also know yoshi-p was against the mogstation in the first place, so it wasn't entirely a fair assertion. It could be seen like that for someone who doesn't know the information, which a new person coming in to the game will not look up every bit of news surrounding many things they will just see the skip potion and wonder why its there if it isn't because they have lack of faith in their story.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

I've already addressed the catering thing (again...) but here we go.
The problem is you went into the game with the wrong mindset as others like the OP have done, and saw the story as an obstacle (addressed this before too... but w/e) to be overcome, rather than a major part of the game. Your experience was soured from the get go, and as I've said before, there are players with your exact opposite result - they regretted skipping because they had no idea what was going on, why it mattered, thus had no investment in anything, and only realised what they had been missing upon doing New Game +.

If you still enjoy the game, good! I've said before and will scream it til the cows come home that I have no issue with people who find things they enjoy enough to stick around. None. However, when they start insisting that the game would be better by stripping what made the game endure and grow for years from it... that's when I take issue.

EDIT: It bears further mentioning that an investment in "seeing what happens next" in a story is more likely to retain players these days than an MMO with no/little/poor story, so... there's that. The fact the devs encourage players to take breaks as well to prevent burnout, and to come back later is a good thing, despite what others have argued in the past. Burnout jades players and makes them less likely to ever return, or they'll return at a much later date than they would otherwise.

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I never did. I never came in with any sort of mindset, other than being excited to explore the world. My parents love final fantasy and got me into it, and they suggested I try the mmo so we could all play together. I made my character and was only on the free trial. That soon changed when I seen how pretty gridania was, the music, went to make a party. Oh whelp, I am just going to buy the game. That way we can play together. I went through the story with no pre conceived notions only that I was excited to explore and learn the lore of this world, but after the fifth time I felt like I was being extorted by some of the characters, talked down to even after killing multiple primals. I was learning that this entire world everyone was untrustworthy and they needed me to constantly prove myself even to people who should know who I was. It was like playing in someone elses roleplay and the GM was just starting to make stuff up just to make the plot longer.

It is much different now, when watching my brother go through the story I am seeing many many things have been removed. I think I would have been less upset going through the story as it is now. I also have personal issues with being forced to do something, but that is on me. I wasn't feeling that the story was in the way of the game it was the bulk of the game, and I had plenty of time to take breaks and go through it. I wasn't in a rush to get to end game. I still am not. There is just a huge difference in much of the story quality. In one aspect one writer respects you and has faith you will make the necessary connections with subtle hints, character depth like the entire ninja story line and rogue story line. Than there is one writer that thinks I am big dumb and need paragraphs of information because I am big dumb and need even the simplest of plot threads need to be explained and by golly they will explain them even if you don't want them too. This is just my personal feelings. It is the reason being forced to do the titan grind a second time in ivalice and again to unlock the new game plus will never be done. I am not a monkey and I will not dance. Sorry. Some of it is not good.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

They went in expecting it to be exactly (or mostly) like any other MMO that doesn't have a heavy story focus. If you can't see why that's an issue, I don't know what to tell you.

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XI, SE's only other MMO title, also has a substantial amount of story. However, they don't force you to complete 100% of the old MSQ just to get into the latest content.

Yes, XI's expansions do tend to have a more self-contained plotline vs XIV's overarching style, but I still don't find that a great excuse to force everyone down the 100% completion route. At the very least, they could let people choose which expansion to play through at any given time. They could also decouple some of the raids/dungeons to make them easier to access.

Why am I not surprised the rabid "IT'S A STORE-REEEEEEEEE" hyper fans are in here being nasty? Lmao, ARR sucks and you all know it.

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Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget

Why am I not surprised the rabid "IT'S A STORE-REEEEEEEEE" hyper fans are in here being nasty? Lmao, ARR sucks and you all know it.

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ARR is actually really good, it just has a lot of padding and slow development. BUT, people should be able to move on once they hit 50 if they want.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

So they went in with a reasonable expectation that it would be a similar to every other MMO out there experience? I think you might be missing the issue.

I don't necessarily think the story should be decoupled from everything but you sure as hell shouldn't have to slog through the 80 post ARR MSQ to unlock the first expansion and 3 jobs. SE needs to clean up the ARR questing experience more than removing 13% of the quests, it needs to be 30%+. There are a lot of drawn out plot points that can be simplified, there are a ton of quests that just don't need to exist anymore. I understand in the ARR times they needed to pad out the MSQ, especially in 2.1-2.3 since the things that happen can be condensed to a couple of quests, and nowadays it should be. In my opinion you should legitimately be able to watch the cutscenes and get from completion of 2.0 to start of HW in an afternoon.

I think the same can be said of every expansions x.1-x.5 patch cycle as well. It is an interesting story to tell, but at this point, it doesn't need to take months to complete.

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I'm not missing the issue, though. It's hardly reasonable to expect something to be the same, every time, everywhere. Similar systems, leveling, etc? Sure, some things are just standard in the genre. Something that's advertised as being story heavy, though? Why would it be the same? I haven't played SWtOR since finishing TET, but you have to go through the entire story (starting with your class questline, which eventually moves into the expansions). Level skips are an option on their own store, but you can't just pick and choose the stories you want to do. Might have changed since I stopped playing, so if it has, fair enough.

Also, it most certainly does not take months to get to EW. Hyperbole much? I suppose it could if you play a few minutes a day, but that's a bit much to claim.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

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You are not being made to "dance like a monkey" though...? What an odd thing to claim, and a very strange projection. To the bulk of this post though, I have to say this : if your parents and partner enjoyed it and had no real issues to speak of... it seems more like you are seeing something in the story/characters/systems that was never there to begin with. Your description of events and characters is rather... off. It's one thing not to like parts of a story/characters, that's perfectly fair, but it's another entirely to claim things that never happened. The one thing we agree on (and I have said this multiple times in the past in other threads) is the Titan questline in the level 30 range. That's just it, though; you're supposed to be fed up with these people. Hell, Y'stola wasn't happy with the Company of Heroes' nonsense and them wasting time while Titan could be potentially running amok, causing damage. Personally, I wanted to slap all of them.

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Originally Posted by LittleChickenNugget

Why am I not surprised the rabid "IT'S A STORE-REEEEEEEEE" hyper fans are in here being nasty? Lmao, ARR sucks and you all know it.

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Excellent way of outing yourself as someone incapable of actually reading what someone posts. Doubly so to MiaShino claiming "cult" behavior to deflect criticism of their criticism. While I strongly disagree with Faafetais' claims, she/he is at least trying to engage in discussion. All you've proven is you aren't worth talking to.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

I'm not missing the issue, though. It's hardly reasonable to expect something to be the same, every time, everywhere. Similar systems, leveling, etc? Sure, some things are just standard in the genre. Something that's advertised as being story heavy, though? Why would it be the same? I haven't played SWtOR since finishing TET, but you have to go through the entire story (starting with your class questline, which eventually moves into the expansions). Level skips are an option on their own store, but you can't just pick and choose the stories you want to do. Might have changed since I stopped playing, so if it has, fair enough.

Also, it most certainly does not take months to get to EW. Hyperbole much? I suppose it could if you play a few minutes a day, but that's a bit much to claim.

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I think the problem is that it is story focused to the detriment of gameplay. 300ish hours of just MSQ to get to the current content is beyond extreme. There is so much that can be pruned down or approached in a different way for the post patch content so that you can get the whole experience done in an afternoon or two of casual gameplay so you can unlock all the other content at that expansions level cap. I don't get why wanting to improve the game's leveling experience is so controversial. The story is good, but you can present it in a better way then it currently is (especially in ARR).

And it has been a minute since I have gone through the entirety of the MSQ on a new character, but with playing a couple hours a night, I'm still pretty sure it will take you a month or two (or longer) to reach the end of EW.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

Something that's advertised as being story heavy, though? Why would it be the same? I haven't played SWtOR since finishing TET, but you have to go through the entire story (starting with your class questline, which eventually moves into the expansions). Level skips are an option on their own store, but you can't just pick and choose the stories you want to do. Might have changed since I stopped playing, so if it has, fair enough.

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Swtor story is not mandatory at'all, nope. All one must do to access end game content is unlock their ship and make it to the fleet. Once there you can do the flashpoint stuffs or even endgame ops. Completed Gods of the Machine on Sithy alt after speedrunning to my ship. May take roughly thirty minutes for accomplishing this.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

Also, it most certainly does not take months to get to EW. Hyperbole much? I suppose it could if you play a few minutes a day, but that's a bit much to claim.

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Two or more weeks perhaps if are willing to "no-life it" as friends sometimes say. Highly not recommended if you are already experiencing the burnout as this is likely to make you quit.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

The one thing we agree on (and I have said this multiple times in the past in other threads) is the Titan questline in the level 30 range. That's just it, though; you're supposed to be fed up with these people. Hell, Y'stola wasn't happy with the Company of Heroes' nonsense and them wasting time while Titan could be potentially running amok, causing damage. Personally, I wanted to slap all of them.

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Thank the twelve yet again that they pruned that quest chain. First near I quit moment occurred right there. Much much better ways to evoke emotion in the player that doth not involve forcing them to actually live it. As uncle said when playing this; Who's on first is a funny joke. It would not be so funny to actually experience it.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

Doubly so to MiaShino claiming "cult" behavior to deflect criticism of their criticism. While I strongly disagree with Faafetais' claims, she/he is at least trying to engage in discussion. All you've proven is you aren't worth talking to.

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If you are going to shove words down my throat and misinterpret things I have said at the least take me out to dinner first. The least people could do is read my damn posts before hyper projecting into the sunset for the love of the twelve. I attempted engaging in cordial discussion until I hit my post limit but replies like this do little to make me wish to continue being cordial. Yall act culty sometimes. That is my opinion do with it what you will. Telling people to alter their mindset to enjoy something they clearly are not is.. creepy. Many apologies if that ruffles the jimmies? Amusing though how of alllll the things you could have replied to that I posted you chose that. Huh.

No one even replied to my last two posts. I cannot deflect what is never sent. Still waiting for someone to answer perhaps one of the questions I posited. Gods if I were paid in number of times someone assumed something about me on these forums I would also own one entire ward.

If anyone is willing to engage in something that is not intellectual equivalent of e-peen waving and does not reek of short guy syndrome then this Mia is willing. If not then this is where I respectfully disengage. Said most of what I wished too anyways and I agree with OP.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

This is just my personal feelings. It is the reason being forced to do the titan grind a second time in ivalice and again to unlock the new game plus will never be done. I am not a monkey and I will not dance. Sorry. Some of it is not good.

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Wait wait, wait one moment here. Are you telling me the series of fetch quests issued by the Wandering Derpathurge was not peak fricken story telling!

True highlights of Haukke grind where; Go to Meffrid > Now Aedoc > Now Charline > Now Meffrid > now Aedoc > now Meffrid > Now Charline > now Meffrid again > okay now go find guy who did not take medicine (that you were forced to gather the ingredients for). Wait what were we doing again? I thought we were hunting the masked man. Ohhh oh right this is setup for something that happens several story arcs later. Gotta say, peak fricken writing on this one.

Comes soooo late into the story that reveal about who you were delivering medicine too that you likely forgot amidst the myriad of sub plots.

Fricken Arcanist quest quite literally makes you dance in front of someone/chest four separate times. :D First bout of dancing occurs at Fools Falls.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

You are not being made to "dance like a monkey" though...? What an odd thing to claim, and a very strange projection. To the bulk of this post though, I have to say this : if your parents and partner enjoyed it and had no real issues to speak of... it seems more like you are seeing something in the story/characters/systems that was never there to begin with. Your description of events and characters is rather... off. It's one thing not to like parts of a story/characters, that's perfectly fair, but it's another entirely to claim things that never happened. The one thing we agree on (and I have said this multiple times in the past in other threads) is the Titan questline in the level 30 range. That's just it, though; you're supposed to be fed up with these people. Hell, Y'stola wasn't happy with the Company of Heroes' nonsense and them wasting time while Titan could be potentially running amok, causing damage. Personally, I wanted to slap all of them

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I am taking this from the wiki but this is what I mean. There are things that are hard to find now that things have been more changed since I was there which could have been why my partner wasn't so upset as well. There was a moment when they were in post ARR where they stopped to do a bunch of other things and would stop at each mile stone in order to not get burnt out by the story, by the time they got around to post that too had been cutdown. They also leveled a crafter to almost level 80 before finishing post ARR and were kind of sad they couldn't play gunbreaker. Doing the leveling roulette and msq roulette as well as alliance raids was not giving the amount of xp it gives after you actually get to heavensward. You are kind of slowed and gated unless you have the road to 70 buff which negates this limitation entirely.

Old Steps
Obtain the empty tub.
Place the tub in the river behind the tavern.
Fill the tub with water.
Obtain the water-filled tub.
Douse the mead-soaked midlander with water.
Report to Buscarron.

Current Steps
Douse the mead-soaked midlander with water.
Report to Buscarron.

The difference is what I mean. You had to do every step individually for everything. There were five or more steps which they reduced to two. Even the devs made it less grueling. I did the prior steps. All of them for every quest it has been reduced to two. After a while it kind of seems it was designed to keep you subbed longer being there was no content at the time of release. These steps may add some degree of emersion to some, but it is not like this for everyone.

Steps
Speak with Laurentius.
Speak with Laurentius again.
Speak with Laurentius yet again.
Speak with Laurentius... again.
Speak with Laurentius once more.
Speak with Laurentius one final time.
Defeat Laurentius and his party!
Report to Buscarron.

You are following him, but why do we let him get away time and time again in the first place. We are a capable fighter how is some random kid able to just get away. It is always like this all the way until smoke bomb plot because you can't resolve anything until one of the writers wants you too. Not when it would make sense. It is all the times we just move our hand and do nothing when something is happening. We are not part of the world but just living in it, which would be fine if we were not playing a custom made character. This works for other final fantasies because you are not the main character. Even Mass Effect you know you are playing Shepard. You know you can make choices but they will be limited to the characters scope. It may be one reason I find these things so strange. I personally wouldn't want to run around doing everything when I was suppose to be part of a team.

Thancred was the only one who actually worked with us during the Ifrit portion, everyone else is kind of just standing around saying snarky comments. And those stairs in Coerthas, up and down now back up now back down. That is the dance monkey dance. I just wanted people to stand in normal places. They moved the scions hq to be near an aethryte but Y'shtola's sister is directly between two of them. For black mage you are constantly being sent back to as one of my friends dubbed 'the wonder cave'. I think most of my gripes are with the quest design and placement of things not the story itself though. Finally pick up mechanist get stuck in a fate either I do, or wait till it ends while level 34 buzzards keep pulling so you can't do the quest.

You want to continue your paladin quests go into an area with hostile enemies a level 50 S rank hunt target and literally 2 fates on top of one another. You will be lower level so you are auto locked to the fate and one undergeared paladin and a horsebird are not going to be able to do that in a timely manor. I don't want to do fates right now, I want to get my new skill and get the rest of the story. I also do not want to be killed and have to walk all the way back.

I don't think I am seeing issues that are not there. I think I just notice things that others just forget or don't care about. Many just have rose tinted goggles looking back on just the story like my brazillian friend who forgot how much they were yelling over discord about the strange quest placement. Recently she forgot all about it and said that the quests line up perfectly with the story. Yes when you new game plus you can fly and you already played the game, you know the steps you know where you are going. You don't get lost. It is way easier to map things out with prior knowledge of your surroundings. I am sure I will think this way too when I replay some of it, but at the start it is not a fun experience. I had the pleasure of dealing with the fantastic bard quest where you get your soul stone in an area with a million hostile enemies that were a few levels higher. Under geared that was not fun.

Playing on the ps4 on an alt really made me see this. With the knowledge of where to actually go and familiarity of the world planning out where to go was way easier. This is not the case for the first experience for some.

English is not my native language so I am sorry if I missed something or some context in your writing.

Y'shtola made me so darn salty for titan, I was glad she yelled at them though, but she still sat down and waited for us to do all of our trials for them. I probably would resent the company heroes more with all of their quests if they never explained themselves. I can forgive them for making me run around all over the gosh darn place without flight, but at least later in many side stories and job quests they were really adorable. Also the gubal library there is I sware a diary entry of Wheiskaet admitting his love for Brayflox
>.<

I would rather just see players be allowed to skip it if they want once they reach max level for that expansion. They are spending enough dev time on reworking old systems when we could be getting more end game stuff.