Death unto Dawn page up

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

It might as well be a slice of life anime at this point.

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You'd certainly be forgiven for that given some of what was in the final parts of Eden...

This one made me chuckle:

https://i.imgur.com/BHBamTP.png

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yeah.

And the whole Nanamo/Uldah situation was cleanly backpedaled to the status quo minus one Raubahn arm. So I wouldn't even really say ARR had consequences.

I mean I guess some random npcs died in the attack on the waking sands but nobody I remember. None of the main scions.

HW did have some. Horsefont died, Ysale died, Moenbryda died late ARR, and Popalymo didn't come back.

But the game has never been super heavy on consequence.

The attack on rhalgr's reach made us go to Doma I guess but the resistance didn't have to abandon their base.

Attacking Zenos in Doma had no negative consequences AT ALL and actually helped us in the long run.

Thancred and Yshtola have ostensibly had consequences of their lifestream dips but it never seems to actually pose a hinderance to them. Thancred can't use aether? he can still punch out a giant during the grand tourney or be super spy or badass gunbreaker tank etc.

Actual consequences are the exception in this story not the rule, and it's not just SHB that's written this way.

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I’ve seen people make a big deal about the Sylph that died in waking sands attack(not that i personally care that much for it.Arr’s major consequence i’d say is the crystal braves situation, where the scions were supposed to die but the community complained so they brought them back :p barring that though the consequences from that are what ended in papalymo’s downfall, the summoning of shinryu etc etc. HW had the people you mentioned as well. SB had some such as Krile ending up having her echo taken advantage of and used for the resonance experimentation, yotsuyu’s storyline etc etc.ShB though in comparison to even stormblood doesn’t really have as much consequential events happen.

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Originally Posted by Slatersev

SB has the most egregious survival of a character that should have died in the games history, lol.

Gosetsu and Yotsuyu surviving Doman Castle is the hardest the game ever backed out of a consequnce.

Though that really describes base Stormblood in its entirety, only two minor friendly NPC's died and I would bet most players wouldn't even remember there names.

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I’d say ARR holds that title where they wanted to kill off all the scions but then backed out of it :p

Have they actually said anything about wanting to actually kill the scions off? Or is that just speculation?

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Have they actually said anything about wanting to actually kill the scions off? Or is that just speculation?

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The ARR thing i believe was from a direct interview a long time ago. They hadn’t planned for them to come back after the flow incident, but community uprising made them change their mind.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’d say ARR holds that title where they wanted to kill off all the scions but then backed out of it :p

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You know sort of grinds my gears about the Ul'dah scenario? Yda and Papalymo are the first to stay behind to hold off the Crystal Braves/Brass Blades.

How did they get away? Oh, they just slipped out amidst the chaos, despite being pinned down and hunted after like the rest of us, crushed their linkpearls, and trotted off to the Ala Mhigan Resistance. Ain't no big thang...

It really makes Y'shtola's idea to bring down the tunnel on top of herself and Thancred even more of an over reaction.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The ARR thing i believe was from a direct interview a long time ago. They hadn’t planned for them to come back after the flow incident, but community uprising made them change their mind.

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Right, because the 5 patches post HW where we are searching for the scions that is planned years in advance was due to community outcry then actual planning...

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I think people in this thread are sort of somewhat making up what the other side thinks. Perhaps that's the only way they can perceive it, but the need for character death isn't something we're asking for lightly. I know it seems that way, but the fact of the matter is, is that they have never had the guts to truly kill off any of the main cast. Yes, I know Papalymo is a 1.0 character, but until I see some fact about him having more screen time than any of the other scions, then he might as well have been second string(Obviously more screen time from 1.0 up until his death).

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It's pretty easy to dismiss the other side of the argument when you've convinced yourself they're making it up...

Again, if you kill anyone you lose the potential to keep telling stories with them, so death has to be super impactful (Haurchefant), move the plot (Moenbrydia), cutoff future scenarios of their storytelling (Nidhoggs attack would play out differently if Lady Iceheart was around, plus create a more complicated relationship with all primals going forward). Papalymo's death accomplished all of these points by stalling Shinryu, loosing a Scion who had been there from the beginning with Gridania players, and gave Lyse the freedom to go to Doma. Papalymo most importantly would be in the way of Lyse expanding as a character and in Stormblood, so his potential story telling going forward with the plot was diminished, and though heartbreaking, was necessary.

Currently, beyond the argument that "Death is necessary" do I hear any kill the scion supporters saying more than death is a great motivator. How does Y'shotla biting the bullet before going to Thavnairia advance the plot? Or Thancred or Urianger dyeing before Endwalker takes us to the Empire? Or if the big city is Sharalayan killing one of the twins or G'hara before we go there? If you are going to support the death of beloved characters justify it in context of the story, stop espousing philosophy and anime tropes at us.

And if I'm still not clear and seem to be making this up to you, I'm specifically asking you for evidence on how killing anyone will advance the story (plot) significantly and you can't use the excuse that the death will affect the remaining characters emotionally and force them to act because that is a given any time a character dies.

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Originally Posted by Kesey

Right, because the 5 patches post HW where we are searching for the scions that is planned years in advance was due to community outcry then actual planning...

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I'm not 100% on the details, but a lot about Heavensward was hastily put together, because they hadn't expected the major success that came with ARR. So I don't think it was as planned as Stormblood or Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

You know sort of grinds my gears about the Ul'dah scenario? Yda and Papalymo are the first to stay behind to hold off the Crystal Braves/Brass Blades.

How did they get away? Oh, they just slipped out amidst the chaos, despite being pinned down and hunted after like the rest of us, crushed their linkpearls, and trotted off to the Ala Mhigan Resistance. Ain't no big thang...

It really makes Y'shtola's idea to bring down the tunnel on top of herself and Thancred even more of an over reaction.

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I mean it's not like Ul'dah had a big Ala Mhigo refugee population that could easily get them out of the city to the Ala Mhigan Resistence, oh wait...