Yoshi-P Sanpo comments re: Bard

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

same dps, less utility is still "allways worse" maybe not at the "low end" but certainly everywhere above 90%. look at 50% or even 75% and you will see mch dominate both dnc and bard, mch simply is stronger than both of them, clearly stronger, their pittance of support doesn't hold a candle to 300-500 extra dps (that will be after the buffs) at that percentile level.

the only place dancer on the other hand right now holds any real ground is in a top end setting, but there comes the problem that you can only take one, the area where dancer starts to excell is the level where people will in fact exclude a class for "same dps, less utility" so this "needle nudging" changed exactly nothing, bard still is "a clearly worse mch" until you reach the 90% area and a worse dancer afterwards.

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Well... yes, MCH is better, but it's also the most selfish of the physical ranged category. The samurai of ranged, if you will.

Don't forget bard does have Battle Voice. It's not the strongest raid damage buff ever (and way weaker than Dancer for sure), but it's not useless either.

I think this buff should help out BRD a lot. Time will tell if I'm wrong, but if I am wrong, there will be the chance for another round of buffs before a new raid drops.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

Good to see SE are still completely blind to the issue of all three ranged. How much of a disparity there is between the ranged jobs and the rest of the dps. How these buffs are a literal waste of time. OPEN YOUR EYES SWUARE

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That's not them being blind, that's by design.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The thing is, bard hasn't really been that far behind. The needle needed to be nudged, and it's been nudged.

If Dancer didn't exist, bard would have perhaps been fine as is. The real problem is that Dancer is basically Bard Plus. More utility than bard, more DPS than bard. This buff should, at least, fix the latter.

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I'm surprised they didn't go overboard and only did the nudging it needed. At worst they can nudge later as well, but this is much better than overbuffing. I'm impressed how well SE is approaching this instead of the old days were patches made or broke jobs, one after the other.

So, what do we think of the BRD changes from the patch notes?


PvE
Sidewinder Potency when target is suffering from both Caustic Bite and Stormbite has been increased from 300 to 350.
Refulgent Arrow Potency has been increased from 330 to 340.
Burst Shot Potency has been increased from 230 to 240.


PvP
Quick Nock Potency has been increased from 600 to 800.
Empyreal Arrow Potency has been increased from 800 to 1,000.
Repelling Shot Potency has been increased from 400 to 800.

The buffs are a step in the right direction, up until you notice that the buffs are basically reversing some of the earlier nerfs we got when songs regained some of their utility - which is basically the devs admitting that they were unjustified nerfs to begin with.

That said, a lot of Bard's problems are largely an issue with its core design right now, and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't get anything more until next expansion. It's pretty clear now that Bard needs an overhaul because the devs simply don't know what to do with it anymore. The hilarious part is, Bard probably wouldn't have needed one if they just left it as is from Stormblood, but Dancer had to come into the picture and Bard has only been reacting to its existence since, with the removal of party crit reliance exposing the core design issues that were masked before (with one more major issue having been added with Apex Arrow and the Soul Voice gauge).

There's a couple ways they could go about overhauling Bard for the next expansion. I think the current biggest issue is that due to Bard's total reliance on RNG, Bard has a HUGE problem with overcapping resources in a way no other job has, THREE of them at that. Fix that, and it'll be a step towards Bard DPS along with ping-related issues resolving themselves.

1) Get rid of the Soul Voice gauge. Fold it into our MP bar, and have repertoire procs restore our MP. There is no reason the Soul Voice gauge needs to exist when we have our MP bar sitting unused right there. Using our MP bar instead of the gauge has two distinct benefits: Apex Arrow is usable during our opener, and our MP would continue to recharge naturally during boss transition phases (while we lose repertoire), which helps towards being able to control when Apex Arrow comes back into play. Apex Arrow should also only use 75% of our MP maximum, so you don't end up overcapping with RNG.

2) Going off of the above, Army's Paeon could have additional MP regeneration as well, so now you'd have an actual reason to keep it running longer than 20 seconds if needed. This would help mitigate bad repertoire RNG. Right now, Apex Arrow is so much at the mercy of RNG that it can take anywhere from a wide range of 40-60+ seconds to charge it, which is quite frankly unacceptable design and a problem no other skill in the game has. Not only that, but Apex Arrow is laughably weak for how many hoops we have to jump through in order to use it as it is right now, and it's not even usable during our opener when every other gauge skill in the game is.

An additional unrelated suggestion, make Apex Arrow an oGCD instead of being GCD. Right now it doesn't flow well with Bard's oGCD priority nature, and it being on the GCD renders it unusable until about 60 gauge (technically lower, except every other GCD skill save for Refulgent has a chance to proc something else, making Apex theoretically weaker the earlier you use it in actual practice). Shifting Apex Arrow to oGCD would mean that using it is always a DPS gain, although its potency could be lowered to compensate for that increased flexibility.

3) Change Mage's Ballad from resetting the cooldowns of Bloodletter and Rain of Death into lowering the cooldown of both skills by 15 seconds, and allow Bloodletter/Rain of Death to retain up to 2-3 charges. People may point out that there's no difference, but there's a massive distinction in terms of programming. This would allow for having multiple charges on Bloodletter and Rain of Death (preferably 3 in the case of double repertoire procs), and also has the added benefit of not wasting any of the seconds already going towards recharging those skills. I and several other Bards suspect that the current programming of these skills is the entire reason why Bloodletter/Rain of Death charges haven't already happened despite wasted charges being a persistent problem since ARR. As it is now, wasted Bloodletter procs are a thing that even veteran Bards have constant issues with, even moreso if you have bad ping.

4) Expand Wanderer's Minuet repertoire stack capacity from 3 to 4. Have Pitch Perfect consume 3 stacks maximum, same as before. Increasing the capacity solves the issue of Pitch Perfect overcapping by 1 when you get a double repertoire proc when you're already at 2 stacks. The current gauge is a design trap that encourages using Pitch Perfect at 2 stacks, when the RNG nature of repertoire makes it uncertain if you'll get a single or double proc next.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

I'm surprised they didn't go overboard and only did the nudging it needed. At worst they can nudge later as well, but this is much better than overbuffing. I'm impressed how well SE is approaching this instead of the old days were patches made or broke jobs, one after the other.

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Well, it's not really a nudge more like a light breeze moved bard ahead by an insignificant margin.
For example, this would be the same as if they were to give you a 10 cent discount on your monthly sub, you'd hardly notice it.
It's like they are scared to do anything or something.
Saying they are approaching it well is incorrect, it would be more accurate to say they aren't approaching it at all, all they are doing is backtracking on the nerfs they did in 5.1, and not on the important ones either, shoulda just removed the dot nerfs.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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These aren't bad overall -

1/2) But I do expect SE has long-term Soul Gauge plans. There's almost no point in asking for changes to it when we don't know exactly what it will look like at level 90. If it fills roughly every 30 seconds due to a Soul Voice II trait, and fires a huge single-target move, the end result is a cooler, idiot-proof replacement for the 4.x Straight Shot. Which seems like something SE would do, and I guess would be fine gameplay-wise, so it's big wait and see for me.

3) Yep, still waiting for this. It's been seven years and counting.

4) I don't dislike this idea but SE probably wouldn't do it just for game design theory reasons. My bigger concern is with PP expiring at the end of WM. If they're going to have Army's Muse doing what it does, and have EA shifting all over the timeline, they really ought to clean that up. Presumably via some Wanderer's Muse in 6.0.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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1) Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't all jobs have a Mp bar regardless if they can utilize it? Rather get a skill that increases Soul gauge than altering Bard to manage Mp for their 1 skill so we can use it for our openers instead of getting lucky with procs. Its not a awful idea just a odd choice to use MP

2)Ima Bet Apex Arrow will be the Aoe skill and Bard is gonna eventually get a single Target Soul Skill a "Apex Crescendo" if you will. as it stands now using it at 20 is a waste since its off the GCD and Burst Shot is more optimal. you need to use it at like 50-60 to out damage Burst.or again a skill that doubles the gauge or simply increases it enough to be usable during our opening is enough in my eyes. idk if this is bad design but I lowkey like apex giving all songs a singular gauge gets real fun when u aoe and get auto 30 in mere seconds

The Fun of Apex is to wait...but ill throw it all away for a OGCD Apex as waiting for apex to triple its requirement to even be viable is abit saddening as you dont use it as often due to this besides ...ya know aoe. My bet on a single target Soul Skill is high ie Samurai 120 kenki skill

3) Hmmm idk about this i really dont want ranged too be similar to each other and this sounds like MCH skills to me except they share a CD. Im very much aware of wasted procs and the Mage Gauge could use a better indication to show I got a proc,I guess Im down solely if they restrict the charges only when Mage is played as i cant stand how unstructured MCH handles charges and would rather have it under a circumstance, ie a song. Example being you dont have 3 charges, only when mage is played so i dont find myself spamming bloodletter too much without structure. Or just got the "further Ruin" route where it auto refills if you have a stack of it. many avenues to fix this i just dont want them borrowing it from a crappy job

4)Wasted procs are just a inevitability their is only so much that can be done with a proc heavy job such as Bard, Wanderer's Muse could solve the final seconds of fast reflex you have to do to empty your proc, or like Wanderer's Encore where you can still use pitch perfect up to its original stack before it expired some ideas like that are find but 4 stacks to prevent wasted stacks is somthing...just looks abit awkward in design

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Originally Posted by Jirah

1) Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't all jobs have a Mp bar regardless if they can utilize it? Rather get a skill that increases Soul gauge than altering Bard to manage Mp for their 1 skill so we can use it for our openers instead of getting lucky with procs. Its not a awful idea just a odd choice to use MP

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I'm just going to address this part as I am somewhat in agreement with the rest, though my main point is that Bard really doesn't have much control over their gameplay this expansion compared to the previous.

Bard used to utilize their MP bar with Foe Requiem, now they don't anymore. I admit it's a bit of a flavor thing to have something that uses our MP bar again, but I feel it would have been a lot easier and a lot less problematic to just use our MP bar instead of coding a whole new gauge for just one skill.

Though Cetonis brought up an interesting point here and at the Balance discord - that ShB Bard currently feels like it's a level 80 synced down version of a level 90 next expansion Bard. This expansion didn't really add anything compelling to Bard at all, but it did lay out a potential foundation for next expansion (because we're obviously going to get a single target Apex Arrow and maybe an AoE Refulgent Arrow). It's literally the only justification we have for Apex Arrow currently existing as is, like they are balancing it around the existence of a future skill we don't even have yet (with it being on the GCD and having such low potency for the effort required to even use it, because a single target variant of it that is intended to be used with Barrage might be coming later).

That kind of feeling might be why Bard feels disjointed right now.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I'm just going to address this part as I am somewhat in agreement with the rest, though my main point is that Bard really doesn't have much control over their gameplay this expansion compared to the previous.

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That kind of feeling might be why Bard feels disjointed right now.

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That def hit the nail on the head in terms of how I feel.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I'm just going to address this part as I am somewhat in agreement with the rest, though my main point is that Bard really doesn't have much control over their gameplay this expansion compared to the previous.

Bard used to utilize their MP bar with Foe Requiem, now they don't anymore. I admit it's a bit of a flavor thing to have something that uses our MP bar again, but I feel it would have been a lot easier and a lot less problematic to just use our MP bar instead of coding a whole new gauge for just one skill.

Though Cetonis brought up an interesting point here and at the Balance discord - that ShB Bard currently feels like it's a level 80 synced down version of a level 90 next expansion Bard. This expansion didn't really add anything compelling to Bard at all, but it did lay out a potential foundation for next expansion (because we're obviously going to get a single target Apex Arrow and maybe an AoE Refulgent Arrow). It's literally the only justification we have for Apex Arrow currently existing as is, like they are balancing it around the existence of a future skill we don't even have yet (with it being on the GCD and having such low potency for the effort required to even use it, because a single target variant of it that is intended to be used with Barrage might be coming later).

That kind of feeling might be why Bard feels disjointed right now.

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The Term 'Halved baked" comes to mind actually. I do agree BRD didnt get much substantial changes some might argue BRD for got ripped off with its role action removed like refresh, Troubadour being nerfed to a boring defense skill, Foes being axed, Song buffs getting nerfed, potency nerf, ect. But if you dislike Bard due to lack of control due to it being proc based (Much Like Dancer being pure rng based) idk if bard will ever be good to you or be streamlined to oblivion, that being shrunk to a nub to a boring safe rotation.

I still love it and its my preferred Ranged sadly, but has enormous room for improvement so much so as its impossible for the devs to just gie it a shallow upgrade and move on