Balance, Homogenisation and Encounter Design: The Problem.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

I'd rather have to play GNB/BLM/MNK/WHM or whatever the most powerful jobs in each role are for raiding and be able to mess around with other jobs which have fun and distinct identities outside of raids (and maybe even raid with those jobs in groups that can accept being 5 seconds slower to finish the raid, or clearing a day or two later) than have a choice between GNB1,GNB2,GNB3,GNB4/BLM1,BLM2... etc. If the jobs don't each offer something unique and worthwhile (and I don't consider different animations or weapons unique and worthwhile) then there's no point in having multiple of them.

That's not to say that balance isn't good, and that we shouldn't try to make sure all jobs are close enough to the same effectiveness to be able to be taken by whatever group, but there have to be limits.

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Instead of there being no point in having multiple jobs, I think the point is to not require you to level multiple jobs. At least in FFXIV it's easier to try another job as you can do all of them with one character, unlike with some other MMORPG. But even then, unless you're someone who like to level all jobs and can switch at will whenever the balance changes, it's still easier for people if they can stick to one job and know that it's always viable. Of course being viable doesn't necessarily mean having to be the same as another job, but depending on how developers decide to approach the matter, I would prefer they err toward all jobs being viable rather than to all jobs being different.

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Originally Posted by linay

Instead of there being no point in having multiple jobs, I think the point is to not require you to level multiple jobs. At least in FFXIV it's easier to try another job as you can do all of them with one character, unlike with some other MMORPG. But even then, unless you're someone who like to level all jobs and can switch at will whenever the balance changes, it's still easier for people if they can stick to one job and know that it's always viable. Of course being viable doesn't necessarily mean having to be the same as another job, but depending on how developers decide to approach the matter, I would prefer they err toward all jobs being viable rather than to all jobs being different.

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I meant there's no point in there being multiple jobs of the same role in the game. If the jobs are "Tank", "Healer", "Caster", "Melee dps", and "Physical ranged dps" then no one needs to level multiple jobs to be able to participate in top content either. And if the differences between the jobs are only cosmetic, then they may as well condense it down to that level.

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Originally Posted by linay

So it's only socializing if all the people get to do it together at the same time? What if HoH can be done with 5 people and there are 6 of you? What if raids can be done with 40 people and there are 45 of you? Sometimes some people will be left out unless every content can be done with flexible party size, but that doesn't mean the game is anti-social.

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The point i was aiming to make is many people play games especially MMO's to play with other people and do things together with there friends..

Of course not everything has to be able to include everyone but at the same time there should always be options that allow everyone to be included.

when 3 - 4 of you aredoing the same msq quests atthe same time why not be allowed to do them together. a lot of people would find it much more fun sharing the experience with friends.. where as doing it alone at the same time other people are doingiot alone just isnt the same..

This is why people have wanted FC content since the dawen of time (or time as far as ARR is concerend)

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

I meant there's no point in there being multiple jobs of the same role in the game. If the jobs are "Tank", "Healer", "Caster", "Melee dps", and "Physical ranged dps" then no one needs to level multiple jobs to be able to participate in top content either. And if the differences between the jobs are only cosmetic, then they may as well condense it down to that level.

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I know what you meant, but some people choose a job simply for the aesthetics, so there is always a point to have multiple jobs even within the same role, not to mention with different roles.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The point i was aiming to make is many people play games especially MMO's to play with other people and do things together with there friends..

Of course not everything has to be able to include everyone but at the same time there should always be options that allow everyone to be included.

when 3 - 4 of you aredoing the same msq quests atthe same time why not be allowed to do them together. a lot of people would find it much more fun sharing the experience with friends.. where as doing it alone at the same time other people are doingiot alone just isnt the same..

This is why people have wanted FC content since the dawen of time (or time as far as ARR is concerend)

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I get that, but it's one thing to want the game to accommodate people doing more things together, which I would support, and another to say the game is anti-social because it doesn't have more of those accommodations, which I would disagree.

It is so frustrating that everything has become focused on Raids and what is necessary for that content, that jobs are being homogenized and changed so that there are no discrepancies between the jobs. Changes to healers and other jobs have made a majority of the content less exciting. What is the point of a class that is only exciting to play for a small portion of the content? Also, why do you have to have a perfect group for a specific set of numbers for raid content? To me the content is more exciting with a level of unpredictability; that is the point of a MMORPG, you are playing with other people and DO NOT control everything. Excluding people because of the jobs they play. Why even have multiple jobs if they all end up being the same? Healers have become very boring due to the changes and lack of individuality with the jobs. I hardly see MU's in dungeons any more, especially RDM and SMN. I hope the people who are so focused on the perfect raid group are happy because I know a ton of people who play for the broader portion of the content and are not. I loved the storyline of the expansion, but I feel like I am watching this game go downhill just like SWTOR, Perfect World, and other games where everything gets made more simplistic and homogenized.

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Originally Posted by ParadoxHealer

It is so frustrating that everything has become focused on Raids and what is necessary for that content, that jobs are being homogenized and changed so that there are no discrepancies between the jobs. Changes to healers and other jobs have made a majority of the content less exciting. What is the point of a class that is only exciting to play for a small portion of the content? Also, why do you have to have a perfect group for a specific set of numbers for raid content? To me the content is more exciting with a level of unpredictability; that is the point of a MMORPG, you are playing with other people and DO NOT control everything. Excluding people because of the jobs they play. Why even have multiple jobs if they all end up being the same? Healers have become very boring due to the changes and lack of individuality with the jobs. I hardly see MU's in dungeons any more, especially RDM and SMN. I hope the people who are so focused on the perfect raid group are happy because I know a ton of people who play for the broader portion of the content and are not. I loved the storyline of the expansion, but I feel like I am watching this game go downhill just like SWTOR, Perfect World, and other games where everything gets made more simplistic and homogenized.

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The part in bold is a big reason why.

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Originally Posted by linay

The part in bold is a big reason why.

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If people are really being locked out of duties because of the job they play, I think we have to blame disfunctioning social features and not class balance. I mean, that's what FCs and Linkshells were made in the first place. The duty finder was a great addiction, but it's because of it if we have to deal with these situations. We are in a MMO after all.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They stand in tandem, quite a bit. Look at GW2 and ESO, classes are not homogenized, and you have the problem with the playerbase homogenizing the setups to do things. It's wildly unbalanced and will never be balanced. Look at the tanks right now in FF14. They're homogenized quite a bit, but they're balanced enough to where nobody is wanting one job more than the others.

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Tanks had the same mitigation kit since 2.0. Tanks are upset now because DRK is WAR right now. DRK also lost their aoe synergy. Three of the skills are sentinel cloned, despite the fact they could have differentiate them in a similar way to WAR. Infuriate should had a trait that also gives FC and Decimate (chaos version including) inner beast heal and 20% dog reduction(FC/IC) and steel cyclone heal per hit (Decimate/ CC).

PLD remains to be the most popular tank because not only did it not change, but instead skills were added to improve from before. GNB and PLD are the two popular tanks and they're not clones. Infact tank players don't want another Resquiat clone. Inner release and Delirium being a Resquiat clone is frustrating, and while I personally was fine with Inner Release being a Resquiat clone, because WAR still different from SB PLD and DRK.

The changes made in ShB for tank went a step to far. Two classes should not be cloned of each other. Role skills are for giving the tanks a basic kit they all have. Three of the tanks should not have the same skill. Vengeance is a spike, so DRK should have mana regen on hit. PLD is 40% an GNB gets a HoT, increase duration for 15 seconds for all of them and boosts Vengeance potency a bit.

Besides those changes I think the biggest issue for tanks is having DRK be revamped again. Three changes and it's apparent Square has no idea what the identity for DRK is.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

If people are really being locked out of duties because of the job they play, I think we have to blame disfunctioning social features and not class balance. I mean, that's what FCs and Linkshells were made in the first place. The duty finder was a great addiction, but it's because of it if we have to deal with these situations. We are in a MMO after all.

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Indeed, but it's not fun waiting for the community to fix itself. It's probably an old debate of how much should the people in power meddle with the people. In this case, whether SE should deal with people being in toxic in chats resulting in more rules and punishments being enforced or regarding job balance and how should SE deal with that to ensure people can play the job they want. The old advice to "make your own group" will always be an alternative, of course.

Getting a touch of WoW classic again and knowing there is no tomes to collect, daily roulettes or weekly tokens is extremely refreshing and relaxing. From interviews I recall it has been mentioned several times that SE want to stick to a strict schedule for patches, that might also cover new dungeons so you will always know what to expect. Which is a virtue in itself, yet for my part I feel they designed themselves into a corner where you are encouraged to run roulettes for tomes and helping out people doing them first time, not because you wanted to run that particular dungeon. So wish would be for them to go away with the dailies, make the dungeons themselves be the destination. Redesigning layout from bottom up might be a challenge, it wouldn't need to be more than adding in a couple interesting mobs that have time to get off some dangerous attack if not dodged/handled properly and add a chance for interesting, random loot to side parts. Dungeons would take longer and they'd readjust the XP gain based on your current level before sync. So they'd stop putting the rewards at the end of it, instead have them inside it. I want to load into Sastasha and suddenly see a chimera roaming the caves, but also knowing it has a chance of dropping a minion, glamour or rare crafting mats if we kill it. Or when we reach the tavern we know there is a chest that randomly spawns in one of the side rooms that reward items AND xp. Basicly mesh their fantastic level designers with the Deep Dungeon mechanics plus extra rewards dotted around.

This and going back to the drawing board for job balances and skill availability at lower levels. Logos actions was a great idea, let us use them outside Eureka in all the dungeons and fates, balanced for pure fun and havoc. Every job is loaded with a wide variety attack and support skills of varying usefulness all on the "OP" end of the spectrum and most importantly fits thematically and asthetically to the class and job. Then give a seperate skillset for Savage/Ultimate where it's balanced by the numbers like they do with PvP skills. I'd wish it wasn't the case, but it really seems like they are hypertuning every potency on the skills for the scripted fights found at the endgame.

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Originally Posted by ParadoxHealer

To me the content is more exciting with a level of unpredictability; that is the point of a MMORPG, you are playing with other people and DO NOT control everything.

I loved the storyline of the expansion, but I feel like I am watching this game go downhill just like SWTOR, Perfect World, and other games where everything gets made more simplistic and homogenized.

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I know the feeling. Getting a full group with friends on whatever job they want to bring is still fun, not caring if we'll clear or not, but then we're doing Leveling on 50+ jobs and everyone goes "No way, it's Sastasha. Again!" For all we know this is the direction SE wants to take the game and they have own telemetries support that game is going better than ever. Still like the game myself, but it's getting harder to do so. If anything is stopping them from doing something at all beyond raiding balance I'd wish they'd let us know.