Healer identity in 5.0

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I'm obviously not talking about good healers who know how to use their tools to the fullest. I'm talking about those who already struggle having the necessary awareness and reaction time to do Extreme content. These below average healers are currently allowed to do EX fights and still have a decent win rates. They already heal with GCDs because of a bad oGCD use. Raising the bar means that these people won't be able to do EX content. This is a loss for them, but also for everyone else. You might even force them to change their role, or even quit the game.

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Savage clear rates are numerical so low, that the number of healers you're talking here is insignficantly low. At some point overall class design for the vast majority of remaining healers should be more important then cutting a tiny fraction out of clearing savage. At some point overall class design should be more important then a minimal fraction of the healer base that is not capable of accepting that their performance is just not up for the task, while at the same time they're are crying about some problems with healer balance.

SCH on paper is perfectly balanced. SCH could/had to be buffed in 4.0 to 4.3 because when solo healing, SCH performance was not up to the task.
Healer "imbalance" is a state created by WHM+AST being disfunctional, i.e. it's missing one part that SCH+X does have, that is the fairy.
In several interviews it's been said that SCHs "imbalance" comes due to the fairy (wether it's a numerical or mechanical advantage has not been said) - fairy is a smart heal, probably performing vastly better then your below average healer. One could imagine how a nerf to the smartest healer in game will impact everyone.

Lastly, increasing the HPS requirement for healing will probably change very little for these below average healers. They spam heals regardless of the group needing heal. Increasing the healing requirement at the end will probably only reduce their overhealing, while having very little impact on them clearing the fight.

Though ultimately, the way damage happens has to change. The amount is to be healed is the least problem. As long as the encounters are as scripted as they are, there isn't no way to improve healer gameplay. Any increased tank or raid damage outside of dancey-phases will just be carried by the currently overhealing HoTs.

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Originally Posted by Hustensaft

Savage clear rates are numerical so low, that the number of healers you're talking here is insignficantly low. At some point overall class design for the vast majority of remaining healers should be more important then cutting a tiny fraction out of clearing savage. At some point overall class design should be more important then a minimal fraction of the healer base that is not capable of accepting that their performance is just not up for the task, while at the same time they're are crying about some problems with healer balance.

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I'm sorry but you missed the context, even when you were part of the conversation I was refering to at first.
This wasn't about Savage. What I was talking about was what Feidam wanted for "Normal eight man content". And within that context, below average players are not a "tiny fraction".
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Originally Posted by Feidam

Normal eight man content can require both healers healing as well. That does not have to the domain of savage only. That will require moving the scale towards more healing and less dpsing on a healers part.

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Originally Posted by Hustensaft

SCH on paper is perfectly balanced. SCH could/had to be buffed in 4.0 to 4.3 because when solo healing, SCH performance was not up to the task.
Healer "imbalance" is a state created by WHM+AST being disfunctional, i.e. it's missing one part that SCH+X does have, that is the fairy.
In several interviews it's been said that SCHs "imbalance" comes due to the fairy (wether it's a numerical or mechanical advantage has not been said) - fairy is a smart heal, probably performing vastly better then your below average healer. One could imagine how a nerf to the smartest healer in game will impact everyone.

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I don't know why you are bringing SCH on the table. I never once mentionned a single job. I have nothing to answer you here.

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Originally Posted by Hustensaft

Lastly, increasing the HPS requirement for healing will probably change very little for these below average healers. They spam heals regardless of the group needing heal. Increasing the healing requirement at the end will probably only reduce their overhealing, while having very little impact on them clearing the fight.

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Below average healers don't mindlessly spam heals. I'm not talking about terrible healers.
I don't think you understand what kind of players I'm refering to. Yet, these players are numerous.

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Originally Posted by Hustensaft

Though ultimately, the way damage happens has to change. The amount is to be healed is the least problem. As long as the encounters are as scripted as they are, there isn't no way to improve healer gameplay. Any increased tank or raid damage outside of dancey-phases will just be carried by the currently overhealing HoTs.

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If your tanks were to take 30k autos in the face constantly, and your whole raid 10-20k every ten to twenty seconds, while also maintaining the current style of busters we have, I can assure you that you'd drastically change how healers have to spend their GCDs. And regens wouldn't be enough at all.

Whatever the case, fights being scripted is the crux of FFXIV's battle mechanics. This will not change.

@Fyce i’m not suggesting that normal content be super hard, but having mechanics that require a healer to actually cast a gcd heal isn’t horrible. Catering to subpar players is not the way to go. They should cater to the average ffxiv player. The base story content will never be hard, but they could make it so healers are not just dps lites.

On a side note, I find it amusing people want healers to use their whole kit, but then act like the casted heals are not part of that kit.

Ya, ast and sch players would be shocked if they had to use gcd heals as often as whm does when alone

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, ast and sch players would be shocked if they had to use gcd heals as often as whm does when alone

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Ahem. Scholar has been my favorite healer since relaunch of ffxiv. Don’t be dissing my scholar. ;-p

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ya, ast and sch players would be shocked if they had to use gcd heals as often as whm does when alone

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That's the point actually. SCH and AST just prove that other ways of healing are just better (in terms of potency, mobility and mana cost). That's why WHM is in this precarious spot, what used to be its "identity" is no longer relevant to the general and efficient way of healing in the current gameplay.

Use less GCD heals when healing, no thanks... I like my GCD heals.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

That's the point actually. SCH and AST just prove that other ways of healing are just better (in terms of potency, mobility and mana cost). That's why WHM is in this precarious spot, what used to be its "identity" is no longer relevant to the general and efficient way of healing in the current gameplay.

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Only because the power of those heals are currently skewed and could be easily rectified with some rebalancing of potencies or cooldowns. Guess we find out in May what the new vision is for healers.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Only because the power of those heals are currently skewed and could be easily rectified with some rebalancing of potencies or cooldowns. Guess we find out in May what the new vision is for healers.

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In terms of value yes, but oGCD are still free and easy to weave so they will still be a priority. That's just the point of them existing. And I guess their potency is already balanced by a little "side effect", like timing the Earthly Star right or the Essential Dignty without killing your target, consuming Aether stacks or preventing the faery from doing anything else but Fae Union etc.
They would need to nerf these to the ground to make them worse than a full GCD spell cast.

Although we already know that Assize was only buffed as a patch up, we expect it to get nerfed back to a lower potency. But WHM has been confirmed as a job being reworked.
I don't see them breaking something that works rather well (namely SCH and AST) is both casual and high-end content just for the sake of it, rather than reworking WHM to bring it to that level.
Just like Yoshi P seem to indicate it's more about rethinking healing outside of Shield vs Regen (which is fairly easier to implement) rather than re-designing the whole functioning of healing in the game, which implies a lot of rework on the three healers plus every single fight that is to be implemented shoudl follow that new system, and it obviously impacts the way Tanks (and DPS to some degree) would need to use their cooldowns and mitigation tools.
When you put it like that, that's far much work than creating a fourth healer job for instance, or reworking WHM with slight tweaks to SCH and AST.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

In terms of value yes, but oGCD are still free and easy to weave so they will still be a priority. That's just the point of them existing. And I guess their potency is already balanced by a little "side effect", like timing the Earthly Star right or the Essential Dignty without killing your target, consuming Aether stacks or preventing the faery from doing anything else but Fae Union etc.
They would need to nerf these to the ground to make them worse than a full GCD spell cast.

Although we already know that Assize was only buffed as a patch up, we expect it to get nerfed back to a lower potency. But WHM has been confirmed as a job being reworked.
I don't see them breaking something that works rather well (namely SCH and AST) is both casual and high-end content just for the sake of it, rather than reworking WHM to bring it to that level.
Just like Yoshi P seem to indicate it's more about rethinking healing outside of Shield vs Regen (which is fairly easier to implement) rather than re-designing the whole functioning of healing in the game, which implies a lot of rework on the three healers plus every single fight that is to be implemented shoudl follow that new system, and it obviously impacts the way Tanks (and DPS to some degree) would need to use their cooldowns and mitigation tools.
When you put it like that, that's far much work than creating a fourth healer job for instance, or reworking WHM with slight tweaks to SCH and AST.

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Really depends on what their vision is for balanced healers. We know shield vs heals is an issue. Do they consider ogcds as they are currently an issue? Or that healers try to rarely use their gcd heals? Are healers having to much time to dps? Has their stance changed on utility? Because ogcds are the primary heal source do they want healers to have a different dps rotation? So many possible questions. Hopefully there will be good answers come May.