Is Fordola the monster Lyse says she is?

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Yotsuyu had no such reasoning. She just wanted to hurt Domans because she hates them, and she hates them because she was mistreated horribly when she was younger. It's a conclusion based off emotion, not reason. I can't think of any way to create a redemption arc from that which doesn't feel cheap.

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I wonder about that, considering the general direction of all three arcs of FFXIV since A Realm Reborn. There's always been the constant refrain for everyone to break the cycle of hate.

Justice without mercy becomes a form of tyranny. That may well be something that the Scions and the Alliance will have to consider, if they get around to putting Yotsuyu on trial.... buuuuuut, that's another discussion for another thread, assuming that someone wishes to get this particular discussion going (I believe it's already been debated in other threads, in any case).

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I wonder about that, considering the general direction of all three arcs of FFXIV since A Realm Reborn. There's always been the constant refrain for everyone to break the cycle of hate.

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That's a little different, I think. Breaking the cycle of hate requires the people in the cycle to say "no more, this stops now", and carry through with that. The motivations and reasoning are dependent on the context, but so far the general trend is "if we give in to hate as a group, this will never end".

Which is a noble goal, but it's different from a redemption plotline. A redemption plotline, to me, would involve the major player(s) saying "I was wrong, and I am going to make an effort to put things right". It may help break the cycle of hatred, but it's not the core component as such.

For example, it's entirely possible for the population of Doma to cease hating Yotsuyu, and try to help her past her hatred, but Yotsuyu refuses to change, and continues to hate Domans. It still escapes the hate cycle, because Doma forgives Yotsuyu, but it has nothing to do with whether Yotsuyu herself changes.

(I keep thinking of the ending of one of the King Arthur/Merlin TV movies/series I've seen way back when, where the evil witch is defeated not by punishment or battle, but simply by everyone just walking away and ignoring her.)

And I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that there's no way to write a believable redemption arc for Yotsuyu.

As I said, it has to begin with mercy, stemming first from an acceptance that Doman society also had a role in turning Yotsuyu into the monster she is. Hien has already indicated the beginning of such an acceptance, in his declaration that he'll remember her final words of abuse and many suffered cruelties.

If Doma refuses that responsibility, and denies any mercy for Yotsuyu, then it's understandable that she would find no point in striving for redemption.

I believe this has everything to do with overall aim of breaking the cycle. There must first be a belief that everyone deserves a second chance. This in itself is almost certainly going to be a nearly impossible goal, with regard to Yotsuyu's predicament, but a chance at redemption must first be offered, before the monster can be redeemed.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And I think it's rather presumptuous to assume that there's no way to write a believable redemption arc for Yotsuyu.

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I should probably clarify my stance. I think it is more likely for Fordola to have a redemption arc than Yotsuyu. This says nothing about how believable I think a Yotsuyu redemption arc will be, taken alone.

Completely separate from that, I also think it is very difficult to write a believable redemption arc for Yotsuyu in the context of the FFXIV patch cycle. The limitation of the medium, so to speak. This difficulty increases if the writers have to do a Fordola redemption arc as well, in addition to everything else the patch cycle brings.

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I believe this has everything to do with overall aim of breaking the cycle. There must first be a belief that everyone deserves a second chance. This in itself is almost certainly going to be a nearly impossible goal, with regard to Yotsuyu's predicament, but a chance at redemption must first be offered, before the monster can be redeemed.

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And my disagreement with that is not that Yotsuyu cannot be redeemed, or that Doma must first reach out in mercy before Yotsuyu can be redeemed.

My point is that these are separate matters. My definition of a "redemption arc" is at its core, a character who acknowledges that they were/did wrong, and now wishes to make things right. This is completely tangential to the business of "breaking the cycle", which is when a long-standing feud is perpetuated by people refusing to let go of past wrongs, and is stopped by people going "enough is enough".

Together, they make a good story, and each can bring out aspects of the other that further add to the story. But while they are complementary, they are not actually interlinked.

There may be a redemption plotline. There may be a breaking the cycle plotline. They may both happen at once, to the same characters, in the same story. But to me, that doesn't mean either inherently has anything to do with the other.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I wonder about that, considering the general direction of all three arcs of FFXIV since A Realm Reborn. There's always been the constant refrain for everyone to break the cycle of hate.

Justice without mercy becomes a form of tyranny. That may well be something that the Scions and the Alliance will have to consider, if they get around to putting Yotsuyu on trial.... buuuuuut, that's another discussion for another thread, assuming that someone wishes to get this particular discussion going (I believe it's already been debated in other threads, in any case).

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But if you see it like that, people will never be punished for their wrongdoings which would just spurn on others to just commit them because they dont have to fear justice. Because in the end is it really hate that they have towards her if they punish her? Or cant they just simply say: She has done x crimes thus she should be punished with y. Also there are no people that would truly miss her (as far as we know) so there should not be someone out there that wants to take revenge for that.

In the end they still could just throw her in prison forever but doing nothing would just be imo the worst way.

You really have to be quite kind to feel sorry for her if you are part of those that got hurt by her actions. I just cant see how she would ever redeem herself in the eyes of those that got hurt by her..because you need those behind you if you want to redeem her, otherwise there will be attempts on her life because not everyone is fine with letting someone free that committed torture and murder on innocent people for her own joy. In real life she would maybe land in prison and the rest of her life after that in closed therapy. But there is no such form of therapy in FF14, so I am not sure how they would be able to make it feel right, for her to suddenly change her mind. Deep traumas like that are normally not changed just because one person showed her some kind of kindness.

I agree with Yian that Fordola has a bigger chance at a good written redemption (where she should still be punished for her crimes and sit in prison) because she outwardly did not truly enjoy all of this.

It shouldn't be a matter of punishment. It should be a matter of reform, if anything. As I've pointed out many times in the past this is a Final Fantasy game. Very shady characters have been redeemed, reformed and have even been allowed to walk away without punishment in previous titles. I see no reason why the same approach cannot be applicable in FFXIV, especially when the waters are murky as to whether or not a character is truly a villain or merely a product of Hydaelyn being a pretty unpleasant place to live for the vast majority of people.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But if you see it like that, people will never be punished for their wrongdoings

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Eh... I never said anything about not punishing Yotsuyu.

What I am saying is that I don't see why she doesn't deserve redemption.

Criminals are sentenced to jail, not just to punish them, but also to reform them. The two objectives go hand in hand.

But first, there must be mercy. If Yotsuyu's punishment is tyrannically harsh, then it'll only serve to harden her already warped view of society's inherent cruelty.

And it'll also prove the Ascians right: That the way to provoke chaos is to stir ever more fear and hatred, because mortals, in their view, will never be able to rise above their emotions.

At a time when everyone would demand Yotsuyu's head, for all the cruelty she has inflicted, the greatest symbolic act of mercy would be to provide her a chance to redeem herself. Whether or not she sincerely takes the chance is separate from the issue of giving her that opportunity to reform, in the first place.

That's why — contrary to the apparent expectations of so many people here — I think the story would go to a higher level if it decisively demonstrates that the way forward is to make a clean break with the rancor of the past.

I'm also quite certain, at the same time, that this would provoke howls of protest among many in the fan community, if indications here are anything to go by.

It'll just prove a point — to me, if no one else — that most of us are good at talking about justice, about harmony, about peace, and all the good things, without fully appreciating what it means to live a just, harmonious, peaceful life.

The most important parting point that Lyse reflected on, in the concluding moments of Stormblood, is that monsters like Zenos and Fordola are made, not born. It was not just an observation of fact, but also a warning to all who follow, that good people can become monsters if they're forced by circumstances.

Who is the greater monster, truly? The monster at hand, or the society that created the monster? Both sides will no doubt have valid reasons to bear grudges against each other, but the cycle of hate can only be decisively broken if at least one side takes the first step to forgive.

To forgive is not to forget. Yotsuyu and Fordola ought to be made to answer for their crimes. But in return, they should both be given a chance at redemption, however monstrous they were.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Zenos is repeatedly shown to murder his own people on a whim. They really had no reason to assume he wouldn't kill them for failing to obey his orders - especially in Fordola's case as it was not the first time she had proven to disappoint Zenos' expectations.

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They have every reason to assume he would try. The original argument was: the Resistance was so close to winning Fordola had no choice but to fire the cannon at her own people because that's the only way to stop the Resistance. She can't believe that to be true and also believe that if she defected/surrendered to the Resistance that Zenos would still be able to kill her.

The non-monstrous choice when given that order is to defect from the person that gave you that order.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

What I am saying is that I don't see why she doesn't deserve redemption.

Criminals are sentenced to jail, not just to punish them, but also to reform them. The two objectives go hand in hand.

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What someone deserves in that regard can't be measured.

There gets to be a point where the crime is so great reform is unnecessary and only punishment matters. I would not have a problem with a society that decided both of them should be executed for war crimes. I also don't have a problem with a society that doesn't have a death penalty.

Is there a point to grant parole to proven mass murderers? What kind of society is that?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

The non-monstrous choice when given that order is to defect from the person that gave you that order.

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Would Fordola know that the Alliance/Resistance do not actually torture/execute any prisoners-of-war they get? I mean, the people of Ala Ghiri didn't, hence the whole mess with Baut.