Low level tanks (pre-tank stance) have a very hard time holding threat after the nerf

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Originally Posted by Granyala

continued damage on the focus target with healing through cleric as needed.

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Not sure if I'm just reading this wrong or not, but in case I am: You can turn off Cleric, heal, then turn it back on as turning it off doesn't have a CD. Healing in Cleric unnecessarily wastes healing potency and potentially a GCD (or more) you could've used on damaging spells. Sometimes Cleric can be finicky but it's always worth at least attempting to turn it off.

Also, on the topic of the skill floor for all the roles: Tanks > Heals > DPS.

The higher level you get, the more things change. Eventually it basically ends up as: Heals > Tanks = DPS.

That said, for the skill floor at least, all of them are easy and one is only slightly more difficult than the others. Things simply don't hit hard enough for it to matter if you hold aggro or not, so most of your actual responsibility is thrown out the window. It's only til... Haukke I guess? that things start hitting a little harder. So essentially everything is even unless you're actually bothering to do your job as a tank.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Not sure if I'm just reading this wrong or not, but in case I am: You can turn off Cleric, heal, then turn it back on as turning it off doesn't have a CD. Healing in Cleric unnecessarily wastes healing potency and potentially a GCD (or more) you could've used on damaging spells. Sometimes Cleric can be finicky but it's always worth at least attempting to turn it off.

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In low level, cleric doesn't do much.
Stance dancing only becomes interesting if a) damage gets heavy b) MND and INT are further apart (I'd guess lv 35+?).
For the most part it's easier to just toss an occasional heal with cleric on to the tank and continue DPSing.

Unless you have one of them weird ones that take damage like 3 40t trucks rolling back and forth over their bodies. Oo

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Originally Posted by Granyala

In low level, cleric doesn't do much.

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I assumed you were referring to max level content since you were talking about i200/i230 in the previous sentence, but if we're talking about low level then yeah Cleric won't neuter your heals as much. Though it is only 1 extra button, but *shrug*

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I assumed you were referring to max level content since you were talking about i200/i230 in the previous sentence, but if we're talking about low level then yeah Cleric won't neuter your heals as much. Though it is only 1 extra button, but *shrug*

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Yeah, not stance dancing in max level = gibbed party. :D

In low level, tank damage tends to be difficult to predict, so I usually heal when he drops below 66% for an additional safety margin if he takes spike damage.
No need do leave cleric for that.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I play all three as well if that is important to you.

How is tanking the easiest at entry?
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-All- the classes are easiest at entry.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

But the worst part of your argument is that "low level tanks have all just lost a significant chunk of their damage output". Low level tankswere probably not running around in level-appropriate gear, let alone level-appropriate STR gear, and any PLD who was running around in STR gear, without Shield Oath, was pissing off healers because he was too much work to heal. Besides the obvious part where this is just asking for a bad time, it was causing the healers to generate more hate because the PLD in question couldn't be bothered to gear properly.

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I'm not knocking people who wore pure vit/statted vit before the patch that changed AP for tanks (as a healer I almost never noticed or cared whether a tank went one way or the other in DF roulettes), but a lot of them seem to have a wildly inaccurate view of the HP difference relative to amounts healed by a single curative spell at lower levels, or indeed up to lvl 60 content (And maybe even at 60). Most tanks get a fair amount of their mitigation cooldowns early... and to be honest, as someone who has both tanked and healed at every point along the leveling process on various classes and through various patches, appropriate cooldown usage make far and away a bigger difference in being "too much work" to heal than statting vit.

More likely than not the people you might find hard to heal are either not wearing level-current gear, or accidentally wearing DoW gear without knowing the difference, or whatnot. The HP values don't differ enough to make HP outclass simple cooldown usage as a means of mitigation. For a healer to pull threat in a low level dungeon simply involved either the tank or the healer playing badly, or both. It has less to do with stat allocation than you think as long as gear level is current, at least until the most recent DF content or raids.

Low level PLDs do have legitimate difficulty pre-tank stance. At 15 running Sastasha on my PLD I could barely keep up with the healer and dps using my enmity combo (pre-RoH). My gear was about as good as you can get at 15, mostly stuff that actually drops in that dungeon + HQ level appropriate gear. People saying enmity issues are just being undergeared must think you are only allowed to run dungeons once you have out leveled them.

That being said, I don't think this issue is related to the "nerf" as PLDs appeared to have the same problem pre-patch. Personally, I like the change to focus on Vit, I've always felt that it was weird for Str to be the focused stat on tanks. Feels like something unintended.

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Originally Posted by LegitChamp

That being said, I don't think this issue is related to the "nerf" as PLDs appeared to have the same problem pre-patch. Personally, I like the change to focus on Vit, I've always felt that it was weird for Str to be the focused stat on tanks. Feels like something unintended.

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This is the point a lot of people are trying to make
PLD always had these issues early game
The nerf didnt cause it; the issue already existed

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Originally Posted by LegitChamp

People saying enmity issues are just being undergeared must think you are only allowed to run dungeons once you have out leveled them.

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Not at all.

You said yourself:
"At 15 running Sastasha on my PLD I could barely keep up with the healer and dps using my enmity combo (pre-RoH)."
^ if you were too undergeared there'd be no "barely" about it.

Threat is also boolean. You either have it or you don't. Having 50000% more threat than number 2 and having 5% more threat than #2 doesn't change much. It just allows new players to get away with not updating their gear and taking an eternity between skill activations.

There are positives to all this though.
* it is possible to keep threat
* by not having crazy levels of threat, you can see the threat system in action which will allow you to get a feel for and learn how it works.
* the above are all within an environment that doesn't really penalize your group if you struggle individually.

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Originally Posted by LegitChamp

Low level PLDs do have legitimate difficulty pre-tank stance. At 15 running Sastasha on my PLD I could barely keep up with the healer and dps using my enmity combo (pre-RoH).

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Fast Blade > Riot Blade does more damage than Fast Blade > Savage Blade. Before Rage of Halone, and even for a while after, you should be Flashing away between 50% and 66% of your MP and then recovering it with Riot Blade.

"Sure if you want things to die super slow" is the reply I usually get to that, but the tank's job isn't to kill the things; it's to make sure the things don't kill everyone else, and the 175 potency per GCD a GLA can do with Fast Blade > Savage Blade is nothing compared to the potency per GCD lost by healers and DDs when the tank isn't doing his job.