[spoilers]3.2 MSQ Discussion/Reaction thread

The only thing Hydaelyn is really guilty of here is some emotional manipulation, not that that is a good thing...

Minfilia was a willing offering. Hydaelyn didn't abduct her and force her will upon her, she told Minfilia something (perhaps just "Go back to Y'shtola", perhaps a more detailed explanation, we don't know), Minfilia willingly turned around. Then she was trapped in the aetherial sea, Hydaelyn silent once more, and Minfilia willingly prayed for our salvation and made on offering of herself.

JustAsPlanned.jpg for Hydaelyn, which is where things get a bit muddled, but it is a lot more gentle than forcing yourself on someone who is resisting... If Minfilia survives, what would the damage be? What emotional scars would she have? It's not like she was tortured by Hydaelyn... She didn't know what happened to us or the Scions, or Nanamo, if she survives I imagine she'd be thankful that her prays were answers... That ain't great either, but that is more an issue with her (and the Scions) outlook, rather than Hydaelyn... If I walked a possession off, I'd be going "Lets not do that again please", not "Thank you!", I can accept said possession as a desperate act when there was no other choice, but I certainly can't accept just blindly being happy about it...

Yes, because temporarily removing someone's individuality out of desperation is doing 'nothing' to her.

I don't think I'm going to agree with you on that. Ever. That's not okay.

I'm gonna take the middle of the road here.

Yes Hydaelyn is getting desperate, but does it excuse her luring her most devoted follower into certain doom and using her as a mouthpiece in a batman gambit? Answer: No. In this I agree with Lucifer, Cilla and Fenral

That said, I'm of the opinion that we need both sides of the story. That we should be question why did the Ascians wiped Val off the map and why did out of all the potential echo users there, did Hydealyn choose to save only Krile? We shouls also ask what would Hydealyn do if we returned The Crystal (Ball) of Light that currently resides in Matoya's cave, and what would Elidibus and the Warriors of Darkness do if we decided to join them. As well as what the entities in question would do if we refused.

At this point I'm gonna say that both crystals should be suspected of dishonesty and Machiavellian plotting, and not to be taken at face vaule without the proper context. We are ultimately a piece of a cosmic chess game, but the possibility that we might choose to have a say in how this match goes might occur.

As for the Scions, I feel like this quote is appropriate:

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." — Friedrich Nietzsche,

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Roundrox. And she's being literally mind raped upon the Illuminati's will. Are we going to suddenly forgive the Illuminati for that, even if they turn around and decide to shut down Alexander because we ask nicely?

It shocks me that anyone can even think Minfilia being alive makes Hydaelyn's actions suddenly "okay."

Edit: Referring mostly to Alisa with this.

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The two things you are comparing aren't the same though. You are overlooking the fact that Minfilia chose to run back. She didn't have to. She could have left with us because after all if Hydaelyn was at all the vengeful sort, considering how weak she was/is, what could she have done to Minfilia if Min had decided to say, hell no, and leave with us? It's fine and all to disagree with Minfilia's choice but what has happened to her isn't equivalent at all to your other example.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Yes, because temporarily removing someone's individuality out of desperation is doing 'nothing' to her.

I don't think I'm going to agree with you on that. Ever. That's not okay.

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I'm not saying it's OK... I'm saying it is far more gentle to have a willing host than it is to forcibly fight someones individuality to occupy them...

There is a big difference between occupying a willing host, and effectively mind raping someone, IMO at least...

Hell... While we're on the subject of hosts... We do all remember how the Ascians operate, right? Forget body counts, how many free wills have Ascians stepped on for their goals?

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Did she now?

Do you remember what Minfilia said?

"No!"

I could argue just as much that she didn't want to run back, but felt the pressure of her responsibility to do so. That's still unwilling coercion.

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We have no idea what Hydaelyn told Minfilia... "No!" could be the result of any number of revelations...

"Y'shtola is casting Flow", "No! (That's stupid, I better go stop her)".
"Thancred took an arrow to the knee", "No! (That meme needs to die!)".
"Yo, I'm dying, please help... Y'shtola will send you to me...", "No! (You can't die!)"
etc. etc.

It's a shame we don't get a detailed account of what happened there... Minfilia could have been worried about Hydaelyn and only hesitated to say farewell to us, or she could have hesitated because she felt pressured... We just don't know...

What's done is done though... We can argue the morality of it all we like, but it isn't going to change anything. What matters is where we go forward from this... Hydaelyn body-jacking one person leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth, but it's still nothing compared to what the Ascians have done over the eras...

Perhaps the only one in the right here is Alphinaud, seeing as he seems set to resolve on finding a better way. Hydaelyn has sacrificed one person when pushed to the brink. The Ascians have sacrificed countless people for their goals. If one is in the wrong, both are. Whether we like her or not after this though, Hydaelyn is still our "Mother", even if we forge our own path, I can't imagine it being one in which we take her our with Zodiark... Worst case Minfilia comes back and everyone thanks Hydaelyn like chumps, best case we become estranged from our "Mother". Either way I think we're going to have to take out Ascians... I can't think of anything they can say which would justify what they've done up to this point... These are the people who got Tiamat to summon Bahamut so they could get the Allag to harness him so eras later they could drop Bahamut back on Hydaelyn for another Rejoining, killing countless people in the process... There is no real way to twist that into some greater good... Hydaelyn using one person as a chess piece (or a handful, if you count us/Krile/the Scions) pales in comparison to the number of pawns the Ascians have moved about over the course of all history...

Honestly, an Ascian account of things isn't going to change anything IMO. I'm interested in hearing it, naturally, but they're still evil moonmen... I mostly want to know what the moon used to be like... We have a statue of Zodiark on it... Was there once a moonmen civilization? I'm sure if there was, the Ascians would spin a "It's Hydaelyns fault!" on it, but I still have very little reason to trust them... I'm incline to accept Hydaelyns "Zodiark coveted power" statement, and assume the moon is lifeless for the same reason Hinterlands should be by now... Big old Primal sucking it dry...

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Originally Posted by greyfurr

You are overlooking the fact that Minfilia chose to run back. She didn't have to.

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Did she now?

Do you remember what Minfilia said?

"No!"

I could argue just as much that she didn't want to run back, but felt the pressure of her responsibility to do so. That's still unwilling coercion.

Edit to Nalien:
Or maybe even: "No! I can't leave! There's still so much I have to do! (but I must)"
"No! If I leave, what of my responsibilities?"

Or maybe even

"No! I still want to live!" (and this should never, ever be vilified).

It's as you said. We don't know.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Did she now?

Do you remember what Minfilia said?

"No!"

I could argue just as much that she didn't want to run back, but felt the pressure of her responsibility to do so.

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But she did run back. She didn't have to. Nothing was forcing her to. It was an action she chose to make. Right, wrong, or otherwise she chose to run back when she could have left with us without suffering any repercussions from the Mother Crystal. Regardless as to whether or not she felt pressured by responsibility she still could have said no but chose not to. Like I said you can disagree with the choice but you can't really equate it to your other example.

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Originally Posted by greyfurr

But she did run back. She didn't have to. Nothing was forcing her to. It was an action she chose to make. Right, wrong, or otherwise she chose to run back when she could have left with us without suffering any repercussions from the Mother Crystal. Regardless as to whether or not she felt pressured by responsibility she still could have said no but chose not to. Like I said you can disagree with the choice but you can't really equate it to your other example.

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Yeah, you're not getting this. I don't want to strawman it, but there are many, many, many real life examples of such "choices" that are not "choices" at all.

When adequate pressure is put upon you, it's an obligation. Minfilia never had a choice. She viewed it as a necessity. That's what I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Sure, we talk things out with Ascians, and they inform us what we already know: That they need to kill countless people and wreak cataclysmic (literally) havoc in order to initiate the Rejoining. We have been given literally no reason to believe their eventual goal is anything less. Or that there is any other way to achieve what they want. So the people you fight for are likely going to be dead anyway.

And Minfilia isn't dead. I'm fairly sure of this. She's just become part of Hydaelyn for the time being, because the Mothercrystal is now so weak that she can't even communicate with us properly. There some strong hints, notably Tataru's dialogue, that Minfilia will eventually be released from service. It's also stated that Minfilia more or less chose this path. After all, it's been shown that she's deeply spiritual and highly devoted to the Mothercrystal. Most people like that will very willingly give themselves up to help their deity, especially if the life of the latter depended on it. Doubly so if they are not actually dying. Hm, I'm not really articulating my point well here...

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We actually... don't know that's all they'd tell us. That's all you want to take from it, OK, but we should have both sides of the story before we decide on a course of action. While we know what they want, but not why or the whole story behind the split of Light and Dark. All we got from Hydaelyn was "I banished Zodiark because he wanted more power;" that is extremely simplistic and severely lacking in detail. In this game, it's never that simple. We don't have the whole story yet, and while I have no intention of joining the Ascians or sacrificing anyone, it wouldn't hurt to hear them out.

While Tataru is optimistic we'll get Minfilia back... we don't know if that's even possible, and if it is, when she will be freed. Hydaelyn called her expecting Minfilia to sacrifice herself, more or less... and we have yet to know if Hydaelyn can even regain power, since it's been 5 years and change since the Calamity and nothing points to her regaining or growing in strength. Elidibus hints that we may be succeeding after our defeat of Thordan. Either way, even if she did so willingly, Minfilia has been robbed of her independence and even her very identity... should we be okay with that because it's for the "greater good?"

How many people have to be sacrificed before it's enough? How many people have to become fuel for the fire? At what point does the death stop?

Blindly believing Hydaelyn and following the path she has laid out for us has led to this. If we're to carve our own path, one unpaved by the bodies of the dead, then we need to stop blindly believing and following her word. Stop following Hydaelyn's plan and create the future that we want - a future with a place in it for everyone.

Is that a selfish wish born of naive idealism? Perhaps. Still, one of humanity's most noble traits is the refusal to accept something as absolutely necessary and instead seek a better way. Foolish, perhaps, but noble all the same.

I'm rambling. Point is, it didn't have to be this way, and the sacrifices don't have to continue if we strike out and pave our own way. We may fail, but at least we tried instead of just accepting sacrifices as necessary to keep hope alive.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Yeah, you're not getting this. I don't want to strawman it, but there are many, many, many real life examples of such "choices" that are not "choices" at all.

When adequate pressure is put upon you, it's an obligation. Minfilia never had a choice. She viewed it as a necessity. That's what I take issue with.

This honestly may be another one of those cultural issues surrounding storytelling, like 2.55's passive acceptance of authority.

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What kind of cultural issues? If you don't mind my asking?

I can give a personal example of similar choice if you would like. You can decide if it's a good example or not.