Raider to Non-Raider: an exhibition on thoughts and misconceptions

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

You could argue that "the job and class storylines are accessible to everyone!" but, well, so was Coil's. There's nothing locking people out of Coil (besides having had to beat the original 3 HM primals), so the only thing keeping them out of it is themselves.

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This is an objectively false statement. Even in uncapped mode, it's not possible to solo Coil; it is reliant on have other competent people. Obviously the bar for what qualifies as competent is lower now than it was before, but the general principle stands.

Conversely, it's possible to see the entirety of the warrior (or any other job/class) story line without even setting foot in a dungeon on warrior.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I also want to add that while the raiding community is the minority from a subscriber standpoint. It is the glue which binds this game together, without it the sub base would slowly dwindle. This is true of almost any MMO and it is ultimately what Blizzard fails to realize and in turn is losing their sub base over.

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That's not the case at all. WoW raiders would tell you that organized raiding is probably as good as it's ever been, and the issue is the lack of content outside of raiding. It was the portion of the population that wasn't interested in organized raiding (and the raiders who want things to do when they're not raiding), and found themselves with very little else to do, that abandoned WoW in large numbers after WoD's release.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

It's been about 3 months sicne savage launched, meaning the catch-up patch would normally have been 1-2 weeks ago. We would not have been sitting at 210 (and definitely not 220 since that doesn't exist...?) by this time in other patch cycles.

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We used to have an entirely new content patch every 3 months. 3.1, by the normal update schedule, would have been either last week or the week before if they were counting from early access and not general release. Savage has been out a bit under 3 months. So, you know, my bad there (I've always been a bit shit at keeping track of time). However, if Void Ark had dropped earlier this month everyone would likely have 1 or 2 (possibly 3) ilevel 200 drops from it for their left side already, plus the eso grinding--anyone who wants to do savage would be ilevel 198+ (all but one ring slot 200, which should quickly fill in with a 210 as soon as they start raiding), which should entirely invalidate the difficulty of A1 and A2 for anyone with the skill to do it, anyway, and give a pretty big buffer for A3. A4 may still be too hard for midcore raiders, and probably would be. Even after the update patch.

However, what I'm trying to say here is that we're in a weird update situation here where instead of a major patch coming in 3 months we're waiting 5. In a situation where a lot of the difficulty from the raids is its tuning around gear. And only two expert dungeons, no other raids, and just a general dearth of content leaving midcore raiders (and everyone else) with nothing else to do.

I don't know that it's really worth screaming that the sky is falling or offering 'suggestions' like the OP's that screw over casual players more than they help raiders--hardcore, midcore, or otherwise at this point, as a normal update schedule will do a lot to alleviate a lot of issues by distracting people with new content and tossing more gear at them.

Further, if the majority of complaints were just 'hey, maybe tune the raids a little softer than A4 and maybe even softer than A3' I'd probably feel a lot less compelled to say anything. But instead of asking for lighter tuning to make the raids more easily completed by midcore raiders, the majority of complaints on the forums are asking for exclusive stories for savage, or releasing normal after savage, or releasing them at the same time (latter of which has some merits, but figuring out gear progression with that would be tricky).

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Originally Posted by Krylo

Further, if the majority of complaints were just 'hey, maybe tune the raids a little softer than A4 and maybe even softer than A3' I'd probably feel a lot less compelled to say anything.

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I'm asking for this :(

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

And it's not like "That's different, those storylines are class based!" because, well, Binding Coil was raid based.

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Actually, Coil's story is a lot bigger than just the raid itself. It had the explanation for what happened in the transition from 1.0 to ARR. It also had some aspects of world building via lore that are relatively useful things to know. Like the fact that there are machines that can simulate prayer to perpetuate the existence of the primal. And such info becoming common knowledge is a good thing (lest we forget, we once had a summoner thread asking for those Ragnarok-class devices being given to PC summoners so they can summon full primals instead of egis, at which those who completed coil had to actually open their mouths and explain that those devices are huge and it'd be impossible for a player character to "get" themselves one of those).

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You could argue that "the job and class storylines are accessible to everyone!" but, well, so was Coil's. There's nothing locking people out of Coil (besides having had to beat the original 3 HM primals), so the only thing keeping them out of it is themselves.

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Requiring 7 other people who know how to play their jobs, setting time aside weekly to run the raid and the organization required are hefty requirements and something not everyone is up to (I certainly can't because my work schedule hasn't allowed me to raid for the last 4 years). Don't try to downplay one of the most important aspects of raiding, please.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

Further, if the majority of complaints were just 'hey, maybe tune the raids a little softer than A4 and maybe even softer than A3' I'd probably feel a lot less compelled to say anything. But instead of asking for lighter tuning to make the raids more easily completed by midcore raiders, the majority of complaints on the forums are asking for exclusive stories for savage, or releasing normal after savage, or releasing them at the same time (latter of which has some merits, but figuring out gear progression with that would be tricky).

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This.

On gearing (using the Alex model as an example), if Alex gear is i190, Alex HM could be i200/205 with an upgrade item to boost it up to 210/215. Upgrade item would have something like a 40% chance to drop in HM and 100% chance to drop if the boss is in Savage Mode.

I'll repost my suggested solution to try to get discussion on solutions to this issue rolling again:

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This part echoes a sentiment I've seen floating around: the need for an intermediate tier or something that's not tuned to the harsh levels of Savage. This said, you haven't really touched on things to actually resolve the issue. Based on what I've been seeing floating around, the issues are the difficulty settings (which a developer may shoot down for one of several reasons) and raid design (why aren't you guys discussing this more?).

What I'd want to see the devs do is implement story mode raids (what we have right now with Alex 1-4), then a hard mode with more difficult mechanics. The savage stuff (AKA the versions of these fights tuned for world 1st FCs) would be triggerable mid-fight. An example would be A1 Hard Mode (maybe A1 mechanics plus only the 4 nukes instead of the 2 and the tank-busters?) having a gobbie in a Dr. Robotnik-style hover machine that sticks around for about 4 minutes into the fight then leaves. If the raid manages to damage both Oppressor and .5 down to a certain HP percentage within those 4 minutes, Savage Mode is triggered, causing the gobbie to repair both to full and then introduce the really difficult mechanics with high DPS requirements. So an average raiding group would still be able to clear it and gear up while also eventually becoming strong enough to trigger Savage Mode.

Better raid pacing and raid sizes (really, we need raids with more than just 4 bosses in one tier) would also help. Someone on reddit brought up the point that bigger raids allow for hard brick wall-type bosses as well as easier bosses that act as a sort of cool-off before going to another hard boss. In fact, the poor raid pacing seen in Alexander most likely has a hand in people getting burned out.

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I am just a gamer, nothing more or less. I've been playing video games since I was 7, playing Space Invaders at the local tavern near my grandmother's apartment on the south side of Chicago. So you must understand why a lot of gamers like me get their back up when tryhards accuse us of being "bad" just because we are not as obsessive about doing .1% more damage or completing a dungeon :30 seconds faster. A lot of us care about performing well enough to complete dungeons, quests, and/or raids, so the backlash you get in these threads is due to the accusatory inferences that you level at us so cavalierly.

A lot of us are also not nearly as obsessed with jumping on job bandwagons based on some bean-counter's parser readouts. I will level Warrior again when the fit is upon me and no sooner. The same goes for any other job that is the current flavor-of-the-month of the Excel spreadsheet cliques.

It wouldn't be so bad if i didn't do A1 to A4 in a day and have nothing to do for the rest of the week.

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Originally Posted by Kedo

So yes, unless you're going to add something constructive to the conversation, do us a favor and GTFO!@

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Cool, Kedo. Can we apply the same logic to your post?

Sheesh.

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Originally Posted by T2teddy

I do have one question though. What is this new BiS gear that is coming out in 6 weeks?

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I know the OP already answered this to the best of his ability, but I'd like to clarify: This new BiS gear is (possibly) going to be i210 aethereal gear dropping in Airship Exploration areas (likely from HNMs). For those that don't remember, Aetherial gear is gear at a particular ilvl, with randomized secondary stats. I can't remember if the base gear is equivalent to NQ or HQ, but either way, it can be crap, or it can be better than pentamelded gear of the same ilvl.

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

I know the OP already answered this to the best of his ability, but I'd like to clarify: This new BiS gear is (possibly) going to be i210 aethereal gear dropping in Airship Exploration areas (likely from HNMs). For those that don't remember, Aetherial gear is gear at a particular ilvl, with randomized secondary stats. I can't remember if the base gear is equivalent to NQ or HQ, but either way, it can be crap, or it can be better than pentamelded gear of the same ilvl.

--Erim Nelhah

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Well the thing with this is that it's going to be i210 gear, like the upgraded versions of the Eso gear. But of course, it's comparing pink to blue gear and, if you recall, pink gear doesn't compare even against green of the same iLvl. The attack/defense values on the green and blue gear will always be higher than aetheral, and the stats as well. So it's not really comparable and is unlikely to be BiS even if you get the stat combos you want. That being said, it is iLvl 210 which will certainly be better than, if not at least on par with the iLvl 200 Eso gear.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

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Time invested in a field doesn't necessarily equal skill in said field, someone who is truly skilled wouldn't be impressive if just anyone could do it with some time investment. Beyond that people who do posses exceptional levels of skill should be rewarded and acknowledged, whether that be through getting rewards earlier then the rest of the players or just through acknowledgment by the devs. On the same ground until you get that level of skill there isn't any real shame in being bad, I've played League of Legends for years and the best I've ever been is gold 3 which by most players standards, is bad but I'm not really upset by it. All the bad players just make watching someone truly skilled all the more beautiful.

On a side note though, you should really avoid throwing around derogatory terms like bean counter or excel spreadsheet cliques in the same breath as complaining about discrimination.