Enjoy Summoner before it gets nerfed...

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Originally Posted by Intaki

If the only answer to an attack that does not suffer diminishing returns is Purify there is a problem.

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You took out the rest of my post and attacked the only part you wanted to attack. Lol
Healer LB works, Tank LB after seeing someone tri disaster'd works -- stops the whole burst from killing anyone.
Yes it has no diminishing return but the most important part you cut out of my post is that it goes on CD. It has a 1min CD. With Recuperation and second wind, you can make up the HP loss from painflare and deathflare. And don't forget that MNKs and DRGs have access to bloodbath.
A melee can easily shut down a SMN on a 1vs1 match. If that is the case, then there's nothing OP about SMN. If you're that scared to get bursted in 5 moves (Tridisaster-Fester-Energy Drain-Painflare-Deathflare), then take it down first. Burst it before it bursts you.

I agree and disagree. I do feel SMN can be countered like most range jobs. Good brd/mch or melee can shut them down and they should.

However at same time its unreasonable to claim that something isnt OP because you can use tank LB to negate damage. Something in standard rotation should not require Tank/Healer LB or Purify. It be like if Barrage + Emp Arrow did 60% DMG to to a tank, then claim its not OP because the tank could of used his LB and negated most of the damage.

Summoner has great sustain range dps. When they are also given biggest burst in the game there is a fundemental problem their design. Just as their is a fundemental issue with how WAR has great sustain healing and great damage. Its suppose to be a trade off. But when a Kit excels at both, that makes them OP. Regardless of if Tank LB can negate damage or not.

Bard offers a combination of both good sustain and bust but this is balanced by a potency nerf to range. Honestly if Summoners want to apply that to themselves I have no complaints. If SMN could only perform their high burst at close range I be completely ok with that. But I imagine SMN arent. They want to maintain good sustain, and good burst with no penalty or counter balance. Even that being said even point blank Fully buffed Barrage+Emp Arrow is only like 20% DPS on fragile jobs and nothing against tanks. So even vs other burst jobs SMN outclasses the rest, and with no range penalty no less.

Imagine if summoner would need 2 be in melee range 2 do damage. They do not have recouperate that heal 30% max hp like physical damage jobs or second wind that heal like 20% max hp. Monks survive longer with first of earth, dragoons can jump away with elusive, ninja can use shukuchi and escape, BLM can use aetherial manipulation and have strong shields. Summoner need maintain their position like all of the time because they are weakest target around that have least anything defensive.

Eh Wanderer's Minuet makes BRD's range potency nerf a moot mechanic.
And BRD's burst works pretty similar to SMN's.
SMNs can't kill someone with Raging Strikes + Tri disaster + Fester.
BRDs can't kill someone with Raging Strikes + Barrage + Empyreal Arrow.
So that argument about Fully buffed Empyreal Arrow + Barrage is invalid because thats not all of the BRD's burst, thats only an important portion of it.
Just like how I mentioned above a portion of the SMN's burst.
If you were to include all of it, BRD would be OP in the same way SMN is that everyone so claims it to be; yet I don't see anyone complaining about BRD.

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Originally Posted by Liselsia

However at same time its unreasonable to claim that something isnt OP because you can use tank LB to negate damage. Something in standard rotation should not require Tank/Healer LB or Purify. It be like if Barrage + Emp Arrow did 60% DMG to to a tank, then claim its not OP because the tank could of used his LB and negated most of the damage.

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When you are facing the burst of a glass canon job, you need heavy mitigation, healing and/or things like Purify to shut it down. I have no idea why you can think the opposite.
There is no better use for a Tank/Healer LB than to mitigate/heal such heavy burst of damage.

The SMN burst combo is not a "standard rotation". It's a big burst only available every minute which completly shuts down the SMN after doing it (would it be successful or not).

Besides, no, you are completly wrong when you say that SMN have great ranged sustain damage. DoTs are a joke to heal through and Ruin II spam wouldn't even kill a paraplegic slug. Plus, with the lack of stacks, you can't even Bane/Painflare, making your overall damage completly worthless. Also, since it's magical damage, they can't even interrupt healers&casters.


tl;dr: SMN is a glass canon with just a burst every minute. This kind of burst is arguably the major reason why Tank/Healer LBs and heavy cooldowns even exist.

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Originally Posted by kisada

fester has a bad animation

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First of all, no. As far as animations go in this game fester's is pretty quick.

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Originally Posted by kisada

so there is no such thing as a tri-disaster and an instant fester on top of it

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Do you even smn bro ? The dots you apply with TD don't appear instantly. Use purify too soon and you'll remove nothing. Use it at the right time and, well, if the smn doesn't butterfinger his fester then you'll be at risk of getting festerd. And of course I won't talk about the case where you can't use purify immediately because you're in the middle of another animation. Either way, a one min CD that forces people to purify RIGHT AT THE START of the encounter could be seen as broken, idk.

Mmm to be honest I don't know if they will get an eavy nerf or not, becuse yes they has a "simple" kill rotation available any minute, but if they crap it or if your opponent do anything to prevent it, he wouldn't be able to kill you, because after using all the stacks, Dreadwyrm trance and Tridisaster (as said before) their DPS is pretty awful and their defense even worse.

Focalization at beginning of a fight o just one heal will make u survive and after u can ignore him (or kill him) for a minute.
On the other hand I feel that Battle high/Fever SMN are the problem (even if I think that there is no reason to not LB them, but people still don't do it), I'm a SCH so I have my points on mind, but in battle fever I critted 5900 with a Deathflare, and it is also an AoE.

I'm curious to see hot it will evolve, anyway up to now it is not impossible to survive to a SMN, neither so hard, you just have to be prepared to them, as they have to be prepared to use their burst rotation, this is pvp, you need to act different.

Ps. Also if a SMN does Fester on a un-dotted player he won't gain any Dreadwyrm stack, so no Dreadwyrm Trance and Deathflare for him, remember it :D

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Originally Posted by DxWings

Eh Wanderer's Minuet makes BRD's range potency nerf a moot mechanic.
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Just to clarify. Bard and Machinists still have a damage penalty based on range even with WM/GB active. Their effective burst range is shorter than that of a summoner's, and typically is less safer since you have to extend out more. Bards also typically have a bit of windup since they need to prep DoTs for sidewinder, and machinists need to get a cleanshot ready

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Originally Posted by DxWings

You took out the rest of my post and attacked the only part you wanted to attack. Lol
Healer LB works, Tank LB after seeing someone tri disaster'd works -- stops the whole burst from killing anyone.

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This can easily be applied to any burst, ever. And we're talking about using an LB to counter something that's effectively on a 1 minute cooldown (unless you're saving someone with BH, which is totally justified)

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Originally Posted by Fyce

When you are facing the burst of a glass canon job, you need heavy mitigation, healing and/or things like Purify to shut it down. I have no idea why you can think the opposite.
There is no better use for a Tank/Healer LB than to mitigate/heal such heavy burst of damage.

The SMN burst combo is not a "standard rotation". It's a big burst only available every minute which completly shuts down the SMN after doing it (would it be successful or not).

Besides, no, you are completly wrong when you say that SMN have great ranged sustain damage. DoTs are a joke to heal through and Ruin II spam wouldn't even kill a paraplegic slug. Plus, with the lack of stacks, you can't even Bane/Painflare, making your overall damage completly worthless. Also, since it's magical damage, they can't even interrupt healers&casters.


tl;dr: SMN is a glass canon with just a burst every minute. This kind of burst is arguably the major reason why Tank/Healer LBs and heavy cooldowns even exist.

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i think this post should explain everything really. i'll add on: SMN actually does have great ranged sustain damage, but only in PVE. in PVP it's far different because a single cure to max HP, a shield cure, a medica 2, a regen + cure 1, etc. etc.. stops that sustained damage in its tracks. and in a PVP environment, countering damage is the first thing a healer will do.

you guys need to understand that just because a SMN puts up big numbers doesn't mean that they are always impact numbers. if i wanted to i could go out and hit 600k in damage but i'd come away with 0 kills, because getting dot damage to actually make an impact depends on your context. if i'm up against a great healer, i might as well just go find something else to do. i can add pressure to his group but LB or medica 2 or succor prevents all that. you can look at the job on paper all you like but until you put it into the actual context/environment and see how it plays, it's really not the same. good players will make accurate choices which counter your moves. that is what pvp is all about.

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Originally Posted by Liselsia

I agree and disagree. I do feel SMN can be countered like most range jobs. Good brd/mch or melee can shut them down and they should.

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Can't shut down all instant cast as BRD/MCH. Silence won't work because their burst comes from Abilities.